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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:58 pm 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Einzelherz wrote:
It won't automatically sync, you have to feed it a sync line. With a Sync-on-green RGB signal or a component signal, this is already being fed in and you'd enable internal sync. With a standard RGB signal you will need to send a sync line to the external sync port and enable external sync.

SDI is all but useless so don't worry much about it. I even disconnected my SDI card because it has a noisy fan.


OK, Thanks!

Yeah I figured that there wasn't much of a use for SDI.

The owner has send pictures and it looks to be in good condition, he's owned it since new. I have the scart -> BNC breakout cable so I think I'm set.

I've got the 240p test suite set up on the Genesis as well, thanks for the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:07 pm 


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HD-SDI is useful on an L5, since you can feed it a 480p - 1080i HDMI signal easily enough (say for displaying a PC or modern console), but on a 480i display (every PVM other than an L5) it's kind of useless because it's either difficult or pointless to get 240p or 480i HDMI output. Like, an OSSC in passthrough would do it, but why would you do RGB -> OSSC -> HDMI -> SDI -> PVM when you could just do RGB -> PVM?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:34 pm 


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Does anyone have the service manual to a PVM-14n2u they could send me? I'm looking to pick one up this afternoon.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:24 pm 


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Are there any big differences in how the tubes are manufactured between "portable" professional CRTs and the more standard 14/20" models? Wondering if it'd be a horrible idea to try and make a 14" set portable.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:25 pm 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Guspaz wrote:
HD-SDI is useful on an L5, since you can feed it a 480p - 1080i HDMI signal easily enough (say for displaying a PC or modern console), but on a 480i display (every PVM other than an L5) it's kind of useless because it's either difficult or pointless to get 240p or 480i HDMI output. Like, an OSSC in passthrough would do it, but why would you do RGB -> OSSC -> HDMI -> SDI -> PVM when you could just do RGB -> PVM?


This is what I had figured (although you explained it much better!). The only use I thought I might have had was the HDMI output from a Raspberry Pi that I have a bunch of emulators on, however it seems like it's cheap and easy to add RGB Scart to the Raspberry Pi, which is better anyway because it will allow Scanlines to be added by the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:59 pm 


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Location: Berkeley, CA
ubersaurus wrote:
Does anyone have the service manual to a PVM-14n2u they could send me? I'm looking to pick one up this afternoon.


https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/wiki ... 15khz_only

all pvm/bvm service manuals can be found on this page.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:46 pm 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
So, I collected the PVM, and the picture quality is great, scan lines amazing!

However, if I watch a video of Sonic 2 on a PVM on YouTube, the game image fills the entire screen, but on mine there are big bars of blue / black at the top, bottom and one side. Is that just because my MegaDrive is PAL? Is there a sensible way to make the image fill the screen?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:58 pm 



Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 561
Location: Europe
Gnomenthusiast wrote:
So, I collected the PVM, and the picture quality is great, scan lines amazing!

However, if I watch a video of Sonic 2 on a PVM on YouTube, the game image fills the entire screen, but on mine there are big bars of blue / black at the top, bottom and one side. Is that just because my MegaDrive is PAL? Is there a sensible way to make the image fill the screen?


If you adjust your PVM to "proper" 240p that will happen with the Mega Drive unfortunately.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:01 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
What setting(s) would make it improper but fill the screen?


Last edited by Gnomenthusiast on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:02 am 



Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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Location: Europe
Gnomenthusiast wrote:
Why's setting would make it improper but fill the screen?


Just adjust the H and V sizes to fit the image of your game. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:04 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Hmm, I looked for that but I can't see it. Service menu item maybe?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:39 am 


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Yes, that's right. Check the link I posted to find the manual for your model which will have instructions for accessing the menu and the number of each item. If you can get the 240p test suite running on your monitor, throw up the grid pattern and it may reveal some other settings that you'd want to change.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:45 am 


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linko9 wrote:
ubersaurus wrote:
Does anyone have the service manual to a PVM-14n2u they could send me? I'm looking to pick one up this afternoon.


https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/wiki ... 15khz_only

all pvm/bvm service manuals can be found on this page.


Actually the link for that specific model is dead, someone is going to need to fix it.

Turns out it was a moot point though, the AV rental shop that sold it to me still had the manual with it so I'm good to go.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:36 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
linko9 wrote:
Yes, that's right. Check the link I posted to find the manual for your model which will have instructions for accessing the menu and the number of each item. If you can get the 240p test suite running on your monitor, throw up the grid pattern and it may reveal some other settings that you'd want to change.


Thanks!

It's all a bit crypic but I figured it out. Looks great so far, will have a go at the 240p suite tonight.

The story behind this PVM : The owner bought it new! He is a video editor and worked for a production company. He convinced them to buy it as it was required for a project, then got it as part of his leaving settlement when he went to start his own company. He kept it with the idea of making a MAME cabinet one day, but never got around to it. Case, Tube etc are mint, it's had very little use. He connected it up to his video editing suite to demonstrate how good the picture was with various different video types and to check all the inputs were working. Overall I'm impressed, there's a feeling to playing games on this that other forms of display don't seem to be able to capture.

Looking forward to trying PS1, SNES etc tonight too.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:41 am 



Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 33
I think I'm ready to go back to a CRT for my desktop monitor. I held out until 2013 to switch to LCD, and now I think I've given them their fair shake. I have had a Lenovo Thinkvision 2452p and a Dell 2408wfp as my desktop monitor, as well as my laptop monitors and the television to judge the technology and I just don't find it satisfying.

So any suggestion as to what to look for in the CRT tech that was released near the end of the CRT timeline? I know about the 16:10 monitors like the FW-900 and the W900, but I'm actually looking for a big 4:3 monitor if I can get it. I just like 4:3 better for my desktop monitor. Right now I'm looking to see if I can find a Viewsonic P225F for sale locally.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:00 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 85
Location: germany
I would also suggest the Sony GDM 520F which is a 4:3 CRT


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:00 pm 


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Posts: 109
Location: Italy
@Jack_from_BYOAC: I'm in the same boat as yours. I am trying to find a CRT monitor as a companion to my OSSC (coupled with a DVI to VGA converter) after being disappointed in the general state of affairs of the LCD market. While there are lots of IPSes with low lag and quick response time around, they are all sample&hold panels with persistence effects, and I don't want to shell out $$$ for high refresh rates/G-sync/Freesync, which I don't think will work with the OSSC anyway. And I'd rather have a non-widescreen display as well.

Unfortunately I don't have first-hand experience in CRTs (well, I do but it's been like 15 years and I was just a teenager back then) so I've resorted to necro-reading reviews and discussion forums. So while we wait for some more experienced user to chime in, here are some links:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/comparison,440.html (very crude reviews though..)
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/comparison,497.html (ditto, but there's the P225f featured here)
https://www.repairfaq.org/sam/crtfaq.htm (very comprehensive FAQ, with a section on buying used monitors)
http://www.tomsguide.com/forum/23210-4-pitch-resolution (this discussion cleared me some doubts about the tech)

I'll refrain to link forum suggestions on specific models as I've read everything and its opposite (even Sony CRTs have unenthusiastic users), it's certainly better to wait for some opinion here. The Viewsonic P225F certainly looks good though - it has a diamondtron tube, those get a lot of praise. I don't know if it supports less than 30khz h.rates for 240p/480i gaming though (assuming you want to retrogame on the thing). What is sure, is that CRTs are not without flaws either, even more so that a decade has passed since they were manufactured. Incurable geometry problems, corner blurriness, hissing, messed-up colors, the list goes on. So as you said, picking up one locally, which you can test to your liking, would be a good idea. Unfortunately there's not much around my area nowadays, so I'll probably end up buying one on ebay. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:24 pm 


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IMO you don't need the VERY BEST MODEL EVR MADE when it comes to pc CRT monitors. Any decent one will give you a great picture. Even when slightly softer-looking than the best Sony model, it still looks awesome. I used to play emulators on a Viewsonic G90F and while it's a shadowmask and supposedly a good cut below the best Sony model spec-wise, it still looked incredible for games.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:52 pm 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Another Noob Question :

I've ordered a gscartsw switch that I plan to connect Megadrive, PS1, PS2, NES, SNES, N64 and Rpi to. The gscartsw site mentions this cable :

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=568

For connecting between the gscartsw VGA socket and PVM.

However, this cable only seems available in the UK on a crazy markup (£27 vs $8) which is crazy.

A couple of places have cables like these at a much more reasonable price :

https://www.tesco.com/direct/6-ft-coax-s-v-ga-cable-hddb15m-to-5-bnc-male/475-9918.prd?skuId=475-9918&pageLevel=sku&sc_cmp=ppc_sh-_-sh-_-bg-_-475-9918&gclid=CjwKEAiAlZDFBRCKncm67qihiHwSJABtoNIgT5cBZOQrh_k-HKV8aFTs1cCf96HpYEthJfYtFd39URoCYknw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&source=others

However, these have 5 BNC instead of 4 (RGBHV?) will this cable work?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:34 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 352
FinalBaton wrote:
IMO you don't need the VERY BEST MODEL EVR MADE when it comes to pc CRT monitors. Any decent one will give you a great picture. Even when slightly softer-looking than the best Sony model, it still looks awesome. I used to play emulators on a Viewsonic G90F and while it's a shadowmask and supposedly a good cut below the best Sony model spec-wise, it still looked incredible for games.

I've always preferred shadowmask. The only downside for me is that the highest resolution tubes (physical resolution) are pretty much all diamondtron or trinitron.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:10 pm 


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Lord of Pirates wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:
IMO you don't need the VERY BEST MODEL EVR MADE when it comes to pc CRT monitors. Any decent one will give you a great picture. Even when slightly softer-looking than the best Sony model, it still looks awesome. I used to play emulators on a Viewsonic G90F and while it's a shadowmask and supposedly a good cut below the best Sony model spec-wise, it still looked incredible for games.

I've always preferred shadowmask. The only downside for me is that the highest resolution tubes (physical resolution) are pretty much all diamondtron or trinitron.


I have a 16x12 Samsung that's ok. At full res it's only 60hz though. Syncmaster 997DF.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:20 pm 


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Lord of Pirates wrote:
I've always preferred shadowmask. The only downside for me is that the highest resolution tubes (physical resolution) are pretty much all diamondtron or trinitron.

what is physical resolution? is it native res?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:38 pm 


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Agreed that most of the higher res monitor seem to be aperture grills.

There seems to still be some very decent shadowmask tubes with high enough native res though.

Here's the viewsonic G220f : 2048 x 1536 compatibility. 1600 x 1200 native res at 87 Hz, and a .25mm diagonal pitch.

Image


The Viewsonic P90F's max compatibility is a bit lower at 1920 x 1440, but it still has a 1600 x 1200 native res at a comfortable 87 Hz, and .24mm stripe pitch :

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:19 pm 


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Trinitron and diamondtron tubes pretty much dominated the high-end segment but there were some beefy shadow mask monitors as well. I like the Viewsonic as well (I love the colorful birds :oops: ), but here are some other:
https://www.cnet.com/products/eizo-flexscan-f980/specs/
https://www.cnet.com/products/hitachi-c ... ack/specs/
https://www.cnet.com/products/lg-f900p- ... -19/specs/ (actually a slot mask)

@Gnomenthusiast: yeah that cable is wired for RGBHV, mainly for PC monitors use. I am no expert but I think you need RGBs for your PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:23 am 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 352
FinalBaton wrote:
Lord of Pirates wrote:
I've always preferred shadowmask. The only downside for me is that the highest resolution tubes (physical resolution) are pretty much all diamondtron or trinitron.

what is physical resolution? is it native res?

Meant resolvable resolution, sorry. As I understand it, resolvable resolution is mostly limited by dot pitch and spot size. I don't know how close or far from the mark I am on it. There's an old discussion here.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:59 am 


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It's usually just referred to as max resolution, iirc.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:18 am 


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Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Berkeley, CA
Gnomenthusiast wrote:
Another Noob Question :

I've ordered a gscartsw switch that I plan to connect Megadrive, PS1, PS2, NES, SNES, N64 and Rpi to. The gscartsw site mentions this cable :

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=568

For connecting between the gscartsw VGA socket and PVM.

However, this cable only seems available in the UK on a crazy markup (£27 vs $8) which is crazy.

A couple of places have cables like these at a much more reasonable price :

https://www.tesco.com/direct/6-ft-coax-s-v-ga-cable-hddb15m-to-5-bnc-male/475-9918.prd?skuId=475-9918&pageLevel=sku&sc_cmp=ppc_sh-_-sh-_-bg-_-475-9918&gclid=CjwKEAiAlZDFBRCKncm67qihiHwSJABtoNIgT5cBZOQrh_k-HKV8aFTs1cCf96HpYEthJfYtFd39URoCYknw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&source=others

However, these have 5 BNC instead of 4 (RGBHV?) will this cable work?


I would assume so. I actually own both of the cables you linked to: The 4bnc one is actually just wired for either H-sync or V-sync only (not sure which one) through the sync connector when connected to a standard VGA source. So if the gscartw is wired with its c-sync signal on that pin (whichever it is) all you should have to do is find which of the two sync connectors on the 5bnc cable is the correct one, and it should work. I'm not 100% on this, having never messed with scart switchers.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:23 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
linko9 wrote:
Gnomenthusiast wrote:
Another Noob Question :

I've ordered a gscartsw switch that I plan to connect Megadrive, PS1, PS2, NES, SNES, N64 and Rpi to. The gscartsw site mentions this cable :

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=568

For connecting between the gscartsw VGA socket and PVM.

However, this cable only seems available in the UK on a crazy markup (£27 vs $8) which is crazy.

A couple of places have cables like these at a much more reasonable price :

https://www.tesco.com/direct/6-ft-coax-s-v-ga-cable-hddb15m-to-5-bnc-male/475-9918.prd?skuId=475-9918&pageLevel=sku&sc_cmp=ppc_sh-_-sh-_-bg-_-475-9918&gclid=CjwKEAiAlZDFBRCKncm67qihiHwSJABtoNIgT5cBZOQrh_k-HKV8aFTs1cCf96HpYEthJfYtFd39URoCYknw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&source=others

However, these have 5 BNC instead of 4 (RGBHV?) will this cable work?


I would assume so. I actually own both of the cables you linked to: The 4bnc one is actually just wired for either H-sync or V-sync only (not sure which one) through the sync connector when connected to a standard VGA source. So if the gscartw is wired with its c-sync signal on that pin (whichever it is) all you should have to do is find which of the two sync connectors on the 5bnc cable is the correct one, and it should work. I'm not 100% on this, having never messed with scart switchers.


You are correct Sir! I found this over at the assemblergames thread :

Image

Excellent!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:18 pm 


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Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Italy
You are right, I didn't know the gscartsw could output RGBs via vga. In general you'd need a sync combiner to get composite sync from vga but in this case the gscartsw is doing the job, so a passive cable will be fine.

Anyway, I got tired of waiting for nearby sales and bought a monitor off ebay for €28 shipped. It's an LG Flatron F900B, the small cousin of the F900P I linked earlier (still a 19", but with slightly less bandwidth and no BNC connector). It has a slot mask, which seems to be the only CRT tech to allow for real flat tubes (as opposed to rounded tubes displaying a flat-ish image thanks to curved glasses in between the screen and the phosphors). While this could make for stubborn geometry issues, I think I can live with moderately imperfect geometry for non-critical use (i.e. videogaming). What instead would surely bug me is going back to curved screens after more than a decade with LCD (even my last CRT tv was flat - a Sony KV29). I also ruled out aperture grilles since they are more delicate (due to the support wires) and thus more easily damaged if shipped. I will still be in the lookout for aperture grilles sales in my area though.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:34 pm 


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I picked up a PVM-9L3 this week and learned something interesting. It didn't come with an RGB/YUV card but I had an extra in my 20L2. When I installed it and ran the Wii through it, the colors were pretty close to correct (I didn't take the time to verify it with my colorimeter) so I'm going to hazard a theory that they calibrated them for expansion cards when they were built.


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