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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:07 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 394
Hoagtech wrote:
I've always wanted the smaller Sony PVM for reference monitors. 10" or smaller would be ideal to lag test and reference true color.

But to answer your question. How important is multiplayer gaming to you?

I have 3 other brothers who get down and would never be caught dead hunkered over a 14" display to play our games.

But if your used to personal pc gaming or live in a dorm, than this could be ideal for a personal station but I would even recommend a 20" when viewing personally.

This is the reference model I want when breezing the eBay listings for a nice benchmark device

The Sony PVM-8041Q - 8 inches

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PVM-8041Q-Mo ... iid%253A16

Image

You'd need to pick up a decent colorimeter if you want to ensure color accuracy.


headlesshobbs wrote:
I wonder if a computer crt + ossc can serve as a suitable replacement to the bvm brand?

I'd like to think that Marqs opened this up as a viable alternative considering there are more of them out there if you know where to pick up any.

Depends on your preferences. I think people put Sony on too high a pedestal.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:53 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 146
Lord of Pirates wrote:
Depends on your preferences. I think people put Sony on too high a pedestal.


That's exactly how I felt.

Back when Phonedork was posting his RGB videos, I had to take a look at the BVM's he was comparing scanlines on and I kinda rolled my eyes a bit because it reminded me of how much my games looked like this when I was running emulators at x2 resolution. I can do a setup something like this with my consoles now and manage to get exactly the same result, but with my monitor dimming out I'll have to see about getting a decent replacement and finding them isn't exactly easy anymore. I'm not even getting them at the donation drop off to the place I work at.

It's so funny we spent all these years trying to get perfection with RGB on our hookups and we finally reach that point AFTER the marketplace decided it's no longer relevant. Those HDMI to VGA converters are cheap and plentiful now, which was something we should have had well over 5 years ago. I do consider the fact that the OSSC perfects the conversion with almost all of our 240p content, so it's something we need to look into a bit more for analog displays before that opportunity is gone. I know plenty of people are trying to find ways that make games look best for their LED's and such, but computer monitors are still among the champs when it comes to video quality at it's finest. Hell I've been able to do 4k on those things long before it was even a buzzword. Just find a decent setup that supports this output and have at it!
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Last edited by headlesshobbs on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:05 pm 



Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Posts: 80
As people have been finding out over on the RGB modding thread, plenty of other brands of TV can put out a great picture. The reason why the PVM/BVM are popular is that they almost always come with RGB inputs on the back. The last TV studio I was in, all the studio monitors were made by Panasonic and had an excellent picture. Gamers wouldn't have picked them up 2nd hand though since they only had composite and S-Video inputs on the back (anything more isn't really needed in most analog broadcast TV production).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:17 am 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 11
Wondering if someone can help with something I've noticed with my recently-arrived PVM-20M2MDU. I've so far only tested with S-Video using Gamecube in 480i. The very top edge of the picture, and this is especially noticeable with a white color, will sort of very slightly move up and down. Here is a video for a look: https://vid.me/YLx6

Quality is not great, but you can see that there is a white part of the image in the upper left, at the top edge, where it seems there is either a "shake" or the white edge "moves up and down" very rapidly. It's possible that this happens in the middle of the image and I'm not noticing it.

Sorry if the video is not helpful!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:20 pm 


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You can try to reduce the image size in the settings to see if it helps? It's hard to tell what's going on in the video.

Also, GC S-video isn't terrifically clean. If you can test something with Component or RGB it'll give you a better idea of what may or may not be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:49 pm 


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Posts: 33
Hi

I found a Ikegami HTM1990R for a resonable price (for my country) and need some advice:

specs
950 TV lines resolution and top-end broadcast quality.
1080i, 720p, 1080/24pSF, NTSC and PAL are available (Including Option)
HDTV /SDTV analog component inputs are standard.
Rear access plug-in modules for SDI (multi-format) and NTSC or PAL input signals available as options. Up to four modules can be plugged into the monitor.
Plug-in module design allows for future system extension and easy maintenance.
Auto-set up probe can adjust for desired color temperature. (Option)

http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/htm1990.html

http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv ... 324s-4.pdf

I already have an PVM 20L2MD and always want to upgrade for a BVM D or A series. But in my country these Sony monitors are too dificult for find (impossible?).

Reading the specs the 1990R seems to me like a BVM D20 with a inch less and a shadow mask. Better things are (at least in paper) 50 more TV lines and 0.30 vs 0.25 dot pitch.

Do you think it will be a upgrade to me? (sharper image, 480p, 720p, SDI) I'm worried about the shadow mask. I remember watching a Phonedork video where he prefer aperture grill over shadow mask (choose a BVM D24 over a Nec X29+). Of course there was other factors like a dot pitch of 0.25 (d24) with 0.60(XM29+). (this Ikegami also have 0.25 dot pitch).

Thanks

Mauricio


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:17 pm 


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If you're comfortable fronting the price, I think it's worth getting and trying out. You should easily be able to sell it forward if you don't like it, and I think it's worth figuring out your tastes for yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:43 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
If you're comfortable fronting the price, I think it's worth getting and trying out. You should easily be able to sell it forward if you don't like it, and I think it's worth figuring out your tastes for yourself.


The price is reasonable but no easy money. Well, I will try to get a discount to help me decide.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:06 am 



Joined: 04 Apr 2017
Posts: 2
Being a classic CRT, the BVM-20F1 is a 15khz only display. It will accept and display 240p, 288p, 480i and 576i. Component and RGBs signals are accepted out of the box, but the RGBs signal requires a clean sync signal. Some systems like NTSC Saturns already have clean sync, while others don't (Playstation 1). A sync cleaner like the Sync Strike will help in these cases. Composite and S-Video inputs are only available through expansion boards. Some of the boards are NTSC-only, while others are multi-system-enabled. For my test setup I added a scan converter (Extron Emotia) to the setup in order to connect a XBox360 with VGA output.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:23 pm 


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Location: Germany
Quote:
but the RGBs signal requires a clean sync signal.

no, they don't. Give it a try :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:10 pm 



Joined: 14 Jul 2016
Posts: 14
BVM 20G1U here... can anyone tell me how to activate VCR/AFC mode?

I'm having a bending issue I saw discussed much earlier in this thread, but even after going through the manual, still no luck.

Edit:

Pic! https://imgur.com/gallery/jhtUU


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:11 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 91
Location: germany
Charlie97L wrote:
BVM 20G1U here... can anyone tell me how to activate VCR/AFC mode?

I'm having a bending issue I saw discussed much earlier in this thread, but even after going through the manual, still no luck.

Edit:

Pic! https://imgur.com/gallery/jhtUU


the 20G1U doesnt have this option. only the A and D Series as far as I know.
It must be something else causing this


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:37 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 348
Maybe AFC is listed under the board options deep in the maintenance menu?

The F1 and E1 have VCR mode, so I'd be surprised if the G1 didn't. The only difference is supposed to be TV Lines. (I think)

What version of the system software are you running?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:47 pm 


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svensonson wrote:
the 20G1U doesnt have this option. only the A and D Series as far as I know.
It must be something else causing this


Are you sure A series also have this option (VCR)?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:57 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 348
The A models do not. RetroRGB just posted a video about the A20 model and he goes into detail about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:51 pm 



Joined: 14 Jul 2016
Posts: 14
philexile wrote:
Maybe AFC is listed under the board options deep in the maintenance menu?

The F1 and E1 have VCR mode, so I'd be surprised if the G1 didn't. The only difference is supposed to be TV Lines. (I think)

What version of the system software are you running?


I'm decently sure from testing multiple ways it's an issue with the amp. I'm sending it back into my modder to get checked over. My stock SNES works fine, same cables, and the SNES Jr works fine on the Framemeister, so I'm baffled.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:44 am 


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Location: Québec City
Some more nice(considering the quality of my camera) pics I took of the XM37 Plus :

Image
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:55 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
Some more nice(considering the quality of my camera) pics I took of the XM37 Plus :

Image
Image
Image


Ahh nice. Your display looks stunning FB.

Is that just a RGBs scart to BNC playing natively on a Genesis? Or are you using any other processor?

Final question. Is that standard scan lines or is there an option to make them stronger on the NEC?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:36 pm 


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So there are 37's out there! I'm super jealous.

Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Sony BVM-20F1U = 240p & 480i (Both 4:3)
Sony BVM-D20F1U = 480p (4:3)
Sony BVM-D32E1WU = 240p, 480i, 480p, 720p & 1080i (All 16:9)

The 20F1 has no advantage over the D20F1, so the D20 just adds 31khz compatibility and has otherwise the same quality for 15khz sources.
Hmmmm, can the D20 accept a RGB HV Sync (VGA) signal via BNC?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:33 pm 


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Posts: 1949
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Hoagtech wrote:
Is that just a RGBs scart to BNC playing natively on a Genesis?


Yes!

Hoagtech wrote:
Final question. Is that standard scan lines or is there an option to make them stronger on the NEC?

No options to tweak them. This monitor displays 15kHz natively! So those natural scanlines(and blanked lines) are the only thing you're gonna get with 15kHz 240p signals, you gotta live with it!
The blanked lines aren't as defined as on a high TVL PVM/BVM (this monitor certainly won't get mistaken for a BVM). But I still love the picture, it's got good contrast and color separation. it looks great to me


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:17 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 91
Location: germany
it looks great to everyone. no doubt :mrgreen:


Last edited by svensonson on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:12 pm 


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Joined: 14 Nov 2015
Posts: 33
hyrulebr wrote:
Hi

I found a Ikegami HTM1990R for a resonable price (for my country) and need some advice:

specs
950 TV lines resolution and top-end broadcast quality.
1080i, 720p, 1080/24pSF, NTSC and PAL are available (Including Option)
HDTV /SDTV analog component inputs are standard.
Rear access plug-in modules for SDI (multi-format) and NTSC or PAL input signals available as options. Up to four modules can be plugged into the monitor.
Plug-in module design allows for future system extension and easy maintenance.
Auto-set up probe can adjust for desired color temperature. (Option)

http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/htm1990.html

http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv ... 324s-4.pdf

I already have an PVM 20L2MD and always want to upgrade for a BVM D or A series. But in my country these Sony monitors are too dificult for find (impossible?).

Reading the specs the 1990R seems to me like a BVM D20 with a inch less and a shadow mask. Better things are (at least in paper) 50 more TV lines and 0.30 vs 0.25 dot pitch.

Do you think it will be a upgrade to me? (sharper image, 480p, 720p, SDI) I'm worried about the shadow mask. I remember watching a Phonedork video where he prefer aperture grill over shadow mask (choose a BVM D24 over a Nec X29+). Of course there was other factors like a dot pitch of 0.25 (d24) with 0.60(XM29+). (this Ikegami also have 0.25 dot pitch).

Thanks

Mauricio



Hi, I got the Ikegami HTM1990R couple of weeks ago. Also make a deal and got together a Sony BVM a24e1wu! Both comes from a auction from Brazilian biggest TV channel (Rede Globo). I bought from a guy that bought the auction lot years ago.

But the Sony BVM doesn´t have the rare X68 card and also doesn´t have the composite and S video card (BKM-61D). So I can only test SDI. Nice picture but I only got it (without X68 card) in faith of find a X68 with a reasonable price or someone discovery a solution to send analog RGB (240p/480p) to this monitor (I know both are miracles but I have faith...).

So let´s talk about the Ikegami. For my eyes it´s a huge improvment from Sony PVM 20L2MD. A lot sharper and better colors as supposed since I´m comparing a 650 lines vs 950 lines monitor. Also I think the kind of phosphor used in PVM is brighter compromising somehow colors. Clear winner with 240p and with 480i the differences are less aparent but still Ikegami wins.

But the real comparision should be with a BVM. As I can only test the BVM with SDI, I connected a PS3 (using HDMI to sdi converter) and both monitors in 720p are very close (maybe just a top to BVM but I can´t say how much the "wider" screen of BVM affected my judgment).

I didn't like (and understood) Why the Ikegami DOES NOT support 480p (it can do 720p and 1080i but not 480p!) and also have sync problems as BVM A series. Anything in RGB will have around the first 20 lines a little warped. (not in YPbRp, so it´s a sync issue). But of all my consoles I can´t get to work master system (all warped), 3DO (30% of screen warped), Analogue NT mini (nes - 30% warped, gamegear and most others cores all warped), pc engine (30% warped) I already bought a Extron 508xi to see if it help as do for the BVM A series (as seens in retrorgb video). (i´ll take a liitle to arrive to me).

Maybe there´s a "VCR mode" like option in the factory menu... But first I need to learn how to enter factory menu!

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:54 pm 


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Location: Montréal, Canada
hyrulebr wrote:
or someone discovery a solution to send analog RGB (240p/480p) to this monitor (I know both are miracles but I have faith...).


You can try using an OSSC and an HDMI-to-SD-SDI or HDMI-to-HD-SDI converter. Be warned that there is basically no 480p support on SDI (rare standard that nobody supported), so SD-SDI is 480i (and maybe 240p) and HD-SDI is 720p/1080i.

Rob from RetroRGB has used SDI converters for a similar purpose, you should ask him if he's tried the OSSC using such converters, particularly with the OSSC in passthrough (240p) mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:39 pm 



Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Posts: 80
SDI is far from rare, it just isn't found on consumer equipment. SDI can support 480p (its part of the SMPTE standards), but I wouldn't be surprised if the standard isn't tolerant of out of spec signals.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:33 pm 


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NJRoadfan wrote:
SDI is far from rare, it just isn't found on consumer equipment. SDI can support 480p (its part of the SMPTE standards), but I wouldn't be surprised if the standard isn't tolerant of out of spec signals.

I never said SDI is rare. It's not. 480p SDI (ED-SDI) is super rare to the extent that it practically doesn't exist. It's not supported by PVM/BVM SDI cards, and it's not supported by the vast majority of SDI converters.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:25 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
hyrulebr wrote:
or someone discovery a solution to send analog RGB (240p/480p) to this monitor (I know both are miracles but I have faith...).


You can try using an OSSC and an HDMI-to-SD-SDI or HDMI-to-HD-SDI converter. Be warned that there is basically no 480p support on SDI (rare standard that nobody supported), so SD-SDI is 480i (and maybe 240p) and HD-SDI is 720p/1080i.

Rob from RetroRGB has used SDI converters for a similar purpose, you should ask him if he's tried the OSSC using such converters, particularly with the OSSC in passthrough (240p) mode.



Rob (isn't Bob?) showed in the video two solutions: one using an Extron VSC 700D (more flicker) and other using the same extron but with an OSSC in the middle (less flicker but still flicker). I found a deal with a VSC 700D and got one. But I will not buy an OSSC because this setup will no please me: it will add lag and it still a flickering 480i, not a real 240p. I want to have the best picture with the best monitor (a24) but even using all these stuff I will prefer to use 240p in Ikegami or even PVM 20L2MD.

So I still pray for the other miracle (x68)! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:56 am 


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Eh. I just found a neat trick. For people who have pro CRT monitors, you can get that awfully-dark(but otherwise excellent) port of Daimakaimura on Playstation (from the Capcom Generations 2 release) to have just the right level of brightness without messing with your monitor's brightness and contrast settings

Just flick the impedance switch near the RGB channel were your console is plugged to "high", while having nothing connected to the output of that channel. The brightness levels for the game then become just right :P

Here's how the game normally looks on my monitor
Image

And here's how it looks with the trick I'm talking about
Image

Maybe tweaking the monitor's brightness works just as good (then again, maybe not. maybe the brightness setting works in a diferrent way and cannot achieve the same result), but for me it proved extremely useful because I don't want to ever change my brightness and contrast settings. They're in the menu and are visualized as a bar with no numeric values so I couldn't dial them back quickly as they were. And I spent so much time tweaking the picture, I'd have a mental breakdown if I were to have to adjust the monitor again, haha

Also, this trick doesn't work for the other 2 games on the disc (makaimura and Chomakaimura). Those 2 become too bright. But Daimakaimura? It looks ace now, just perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:08 am 


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I have a Phillips 21PT5006/79 consumer CRT. It's in great condition and thus looks pretty neat. There's one problem though; it's red levels are too high. Reds pop way too much which gives pictures that use the color orange and purple a weird glow to them. Is there a way to access a hidden service menu or something to turn down the red levels and stop the CRT from looking like it wants to crush capitalism?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:00 am 


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hyrulebr wrote:
Brazilian


Nice to see pro crt action from Brasil! Parabens!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:28 am 


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Mantis128 wrote:
I have a Phillips 21PT5006/79 consumer CRT. It's in great condition and thus looks pretty neat. There's one problem though; it's red levels are too high. Reds pop way too much which gives pictures that use the color orange and purple a weird glow to them. Is there a way to access a hidden service menu or something to turn down the red levels and stop the CRT from looking like it wants to crush capitalism?

You can download what appears to be the service manual here: http://elektrotanya.com/philips_21pt5006_l01.2a_ab.rar/download.html
(link appears under the previews after ~2 minutes)
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