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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:47 pm 



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 1
I have a few BVMs, and PVMs and I'm noticing something odd on each of them that I'm not seeing on a consumer set that I also have...

There's a ghosting / streaking effect that is happening on these sets that is very apparent when there is a black background. Examples:

1. The starting menu of Chrono Trigger, with the clock pendulum swinging on the black background. There is some streaking that follows the pendulum.
2. In Super Metroid, when you enter a new room and the screen drags in that direction on the black background, there is streaking from the door.
3. In Gradius 3, the whole first level takes place on a black background. Everything is streaking from the ship to the enemies. It's extremely noticeable and distracting.

Every single PVM and BVM I've tried this on has this issue, which is making me think its not a coincidence. Additionally, my BVMs with low hours (< 30k) also have this issue. Everything I'm testing this on has the SMPTE-C phosphor, with the exception of the consumer set which I'm not sure about phosphor-wise (The consumer set does NOT have this issue).

Is this this a property of the phosphor, or is something else an issue here? Is there a way to fix it?

If it's a common thing, I'm shocked more people aren't talking about it, since it's quite a distraction in games with a black background like Gradius.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:15 am 


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Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 196
Location: UK
Thanks Sgt.Wafer, I wasn't sure they were since they don't have the wavy symbol next to them on the back :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:49 am 


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Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 155
Location: United States
I think what you are seeing are phosphor trails, basically high contrast stuff against a black background produces a greenish trail effect that takes a few frames to disappear.

From my own experience each CRT does this to various degrees. If I recall, I think the severity of it depends upon the green phosphor in the tubes. Your eyes pick up on the streaking with high contrast black backgrounds because the half life of the green phosphor's light to disappear takes significantly longer than blue and red/they don't all turn off at once. At least this is what I've read up and surmised.

I've noticed excessive contrast makes it a lot more noticeable as well. In any case I would learn to live with it.


Last edited by ChuChu Flamingo on Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:28 am 



Joined: 17 Jan 2016
Posts: 139
Yeah that is the phosphors taking longer to settle down after being excited. Nothing to worry about, it's just the technology


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:14 pm 


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Playing in a well lit room is supposed to help how much of that you see to a minimum.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:25 pm 



Joined: 20 Mar 2017
Posts: 21
Hey, don't know if this is the place to post this but figured I'd ask.

I picked up a BVM D20F1U and want to hook up some svideo to it. Other than the BKM-24N, is there a better option?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:43 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 315
mheyman wrote:

I picked up a BVM D20F1U and want to hook up some svideo to it. Other than the BKM-24N, is there a better option?


For s-video, you would need either the BKM-24N (NTSC), the BKM-25P (PAL), or the BKM-27T (NTSC/PAL/SECAM).

It looks like there is a 24N available now on eBay for $100. I think that is a fair price and it looks like it is being sold by Sony.

The BKM-27T is technically the "best" option, but those are rare. I haven't seen one in years.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:34 am 



Joined: 20 Mar 2017
Posts: 21
philexile wrote:
mheyman wrote:

I picked up a BVM D20F1U and want to hook up some svideo to it. Other than the BKM-24N, is there a better option?


For s-video, you would need either the BKM-24N (NTSC), the BKM-25P (PAL), or the BKM-27T (NTSC/PAL/SECAM).

It looks like there is a 24N available now on eBay for $100. I think that is a fair price and it looks like it is being sold by Sony.

The BKM-27T is technically the "best" option, but those are rare. I haven't seen one in years.

Good luck!


Thanks for the response! I guess I was curious about other solutions outside of the BVM. Like svideo to component converters and stuff.

Either way, got the guy down to 80 bucks so i picked it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:26 am 



Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 2
Hi,

I recently picked up a JVC H2000PN-K, and the picture looks amazing. One minor problem I have noticed is that I am unable to horizontally centre the image when running stuff in 240p. Here are is an example:

Image

Image

Weirdly, when I run a 480i signal through RGB it fills the screen perfectly. I have the image adjustment settings up on the screen, H.POSITION +10 is the maximum and H.SIZE is the minimum (H.SIZE expands from the centre, so making it larger does fill more of the screen but also cuts off some of the left side). If I hit the underscan switch I can see the full image, and it's clear that the black bar on the right side is much thicker than the one on the left:
Image

I am still overall very happy with the image quality on this monitor, but I was wondering if anyone with the same or similar model has experienced this issue and has any idea if it can be rectified. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:08 am 



Joined: 17 Jan 2016
Posts: 139
Does anybody know how to adjust horizontal skew on a bvm. My 2011 does not have this adjustment but needs a slight tweak. It's a couple of degrees off and there appears to only a vertical adjustment


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:09 am 


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Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 333
Location: Bellingham, WA
Kez wrote:
Hi,

I recently picked up a JVC H2000PN-K, and the picture looks amazing. One minor problem I have noticed is that I am unable to horizontally centre the image when running stuff in 240p. Here are is an example:

Image

Image

Weirdly, when I run a 480i signal through RGB it fills the screen perfectly. I have the image adjustment settings up on the screen, H.POSITION +10 is the maximum and H.SIZE is the minimum (H.SIZE expands from the centre, so making it larger does fill more of the screen but also cuts off some of the left side). If I hit the underscan switch I can see the full image, and it's clear that the black bar on the right side is much thicker than the one on the left:
Image

I am still overall very happy with the image quality on this monitor, but I was wondering if anyone with the same or similar model has experienced this issue and has any idea if it can be rectified. Thanks!


I heard that a sync stripper can pull the image further to the left if you are using one.

I am trying to adjust outside of my parameters as well on my Mitsubishi XC3725C Monitor and @Xga showed me that there is an internal adjustment board to adjust my parameters by reading the service manual thanks @retroRGB. I would read this service manual first to see how to enter service mode.

Edit: Here you go


Image
Image

Looks like you need a remote>enter service mode> D34 is the selection for h-shift on RGB


BM-H2000PN-K Service Manual link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3ZFcM ... JHTVE/edit
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Last edited by Hoagtech on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:35 am 


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Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 61
Don't supposed you'd know where I could find the service manual for a TM-H1900G or TM-H1750CG, would you?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:47 am 


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Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 958
In the jvc thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:34 am 



Joined: 21 Jul 2017
Posts: 3
Could anyone tell me if this SONY PVM-20M4E
Is on its last legs or if I can fix any of this?
I don't understand what any of this means but I can tell there is a problem.

Image

Spoiler: show
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


(Also my snes failed the electric test? What does this mean?)

If anyone more educated than me could take a look at these photos (I can take more if need be) and tell me what is wrong
and if any of it is fixable, it would be much appreciated thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:51 pm 


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Posts: 868
I don't get it. What's the problem exactly?

For the purple corners on the red screen, try a manual degauss.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:53 am 


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Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 61
I didn't even realize there was a JVC thread to be honest; I tend to just lurk this thread specifically.

That said, I'm trying to find one with more than just the schematics or what have you; Based on the 1700G one, I doubt the 1900G would have any extra information.
The main question(s) I was hoping to have answered by it was how to enter the service menu on it and what the different registers on it would be for (assuming it has one like other JVCs/Panasonics) and what chassis it uses. I think I've figured out the latter one, seeing as the H1700G, and all three (H150CG, H1750CG, and H1950CG) all use the S1, I would think the 1900G would as well; If so, that would make my plans to do a tube swap between a 1750 and 1900 pretty simple.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:59 am 


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No prob. I just made the thread this week. I forget where I learned how to use the service menu but if no one else responds I'll try to find it. IIRC I believe it was the TM-H150CG manual.

Edit: it was that manual and I added it to the JVC thread OP.


Last edited by Einzelherz on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:35 am 



Joined: 21 Jul 2017
Posts: 3
nem wrote:
I don't get it. What's the problem exactly?

For the purple corners on the red screen, try a manual degauss.


I have no clue about crts and what is causing the purple corners, or what any of the test screens indicate, I just wanted to know if people more experienced than myself could tell what was causing the purple corners and how to solve them and if there if any major problems shown as a result of viewing the test screens, I pressed the degaussing button on the set but purple corners remain, any other ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:09 pm 



Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 2
Hoagtech wrote:
I am trying to adjust outside of my parameters as well on my Mitsubishi XC3725C Monitor and @Xga showed me that there is an internal adjustment board to adjust my parameters by reading the service manual thanks @retroRGB. I would read this service manual first to see how to enter service mode.

Edit: Here you go

Looks like you need a remote>enter service mode> D34 is the selection for h-shift on RGB


BM-H2000PN-K Service Manual link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3ZFcM ... JHTVE/edit


Amazing, this worked perfectly thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:57 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 385
Mrhomefoodhealth wrote:
nem wrote:
I don't get it. What's the problem exactly?

For the purple corners on the red screen, try a manual degauss.


I have no clue about crts and what is causing the purple corners, or what any of the test screens indicate, I just wanted to know if people more experienced than myself could tell what was causing the purple corners and how to solve them and if there if any major problems shown as a result of viewing the test screens, I pressed the degaussing button on the set but purple corners remain, any other ideas?

Anything next to it or in the vicinity (speakers, consoles, other electronics, etc.)?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:09 pm 


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Posts: 15
Quick and slightly stupid question: With the Sony BVM 20F1 is there any way to turn the picture that displays when you hit the 16:9 button into a 4:3 aspect ratio that fills the whole screen?

I ask because I have two geometry setups right now, one can be recalled with the 4:3-normal and the other in the 4:3-underscan button. Now I just got a few more consoles and having a 3rd and 4th setup would be beneficial. But in the 16:9 modes I can't seem to stretch the image vertically above a certain point defined by that faint grey horizontal line at the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:33 pm 


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Iirc on BVMs that recent you can give every system a channel with its own geometry.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:33 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 766
Location: Ohio
Einzelherz wrote:
Iirc on BVMs that recent you can give every system a channel with its own geometry.

How is that even possible? I thought geometry was a physical setting tied to the tube that's universal across all settings and inputs.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:50 am 


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Location: Kentucky
GeneraLight wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
Iirc on BVMs that recent you can give every system a channel with its own geometry.

How is that even possible? I thought geometry was a physical setting tied to the tube that's universal across all settings and inputs.


Newer BVMs utilize digital geometry correction, and even if they didn't they're still broadcast displays that could certainly change the setting on a per-input basis.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:57 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 137
Einzelherz wrote:
Iirc on BVMs that recent you can give every system a channel with its own geometry.

I got excited when I heard this - so I tried it on my BVM-D20F1U (only the A-series is newer I believe), and adjusted my geometry on channel 2 and it changed it on channel 1 as well...so unless I'm missing a step it doesn't seem to keep the geometry settings on a per-channel basis sadly (because that would be absolutely GREAT if it did!).

I have quite a few cards for it but only have the basic/stock RGBs (and component) card in it now - maybe those different cards would keep their own geometry settings? - regardless, you can only have a couple different cards installed but multiple channels so that wouldn't be ideal for everyone's setup (plus those cards can be expensive).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:02 am 


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I have the same BVM and am pretty sure you can't have geometry per channel. When I got it I was under the assumption that you could so it was one of the first things I tried and kept running into brick walls.

As for sanni's question, I don't think that's possible either since I ran into the same problem/query a few months ago and never found a solution. Max V height is 255 and 16:9 won't reach the top of the monitor. I'd love to be proven wrong on both though.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:05 pm 


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Yeah from what I tried so far you can only set each channel to either one of the 4 geometry profiles, 4:3-norm, 4:3-under, 16:9-norm and 16:9-under. Or just use the face buttons on the remote.

You can also change the geometry settings of the 4:3 underscan profile to match the normal 4:3, so that it fills the whole screen. Effectively giving you two usable and independent geometry settings for retro consoles.

Still if there was a way to turn the 16:9 profiles into a 4:3 aspect ratio, that would be golden. I wonder if this vertical limit in 16:9 mode is a hardware limitation or just a restriction set in software.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:19 pm 


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Yeah I have one set for CPS games and the other as just a general one. Would be great to have four different settings.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:18 pm 


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PVM 2130QM: the screen is slightly tilted and I would need to adjust the yoke. Do I use my hands, wear gloves, use pliers? Which part do I definitely don't touch...any tips?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:16 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 137
Magicalbottle wrote:
PVM 2130QM: the screen is slightly tilted and I would need to adjust the yoke. Do I use my hands, wear gloves, use pliers? Which part do I definitely don't touch...any tips?


I just did this for the first time last night on a 20M2. I unscrewed the screw holding the yoke on tight (with a plastic/rubber handled screwdriver), then with a pair of rubber dish gloves on I simply turned the yoke until the image was 99% perfectly straight, and tightened that screw while holding the yoke (so it wouldn't move as that screw was tightened). Don't even know if I needed to wear gloves but they were around so why not.


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