shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Fri May 26, 2017 11:05 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4537 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 148, 149, 150, 151, 152  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:06 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1104
Fudoh wrote:
I just don't think that they actually updated the tubes on the 14" and 20" models since the earlier BVM models. They changed the chassis to add 720p and 1080i support, but I would be surprised if there was much evolution on the actual tubes.


Oh I see, that make sense, thanks for the info.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:13 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Sao Paulo BR
Lawfer wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
all the 20" BVMs had that curvature. 20F1, D20, even the A20. Only the 24"+ models were flat.


Didn't know that, is there any reasons why they didn't/couldn't make the 20" size of the same model series not completely flat?


Maybe it was not worth changing monitors which were already praised by the market and were considered state-of-the-art hardware, I mean, there wasn't much to improve on them rather then just update input and decoder boards to keep up with broadcast technology. They were already "the best" monitors, and probably were produced in much larger numbers then the largest PVM and BVM, it was a huge production line to mess with.

So they only took the time and effort to redesign larger (and more expensive) monitors with the new flat display technology.

The TV market was very different, they had to sell something different/better to keep the "better then anything else" reputation of the "Trinitron", so they made consumer "WEGA" TVs of all sizes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 47
Fudoh wrote:
I just don't think that they actually updated the tubes on the 14" and 20" models since the earlier BVM models. They changed the chassis to add 720p and 1080i support, but I would be surprised if there was much evolution on the actual tubes.

The tubes themselves apparently exactly the same between the Evergreen, DTV, and Digital lines, with only as you said the chassis changing.
_________________
More scanlines than your body has room for.
No, Seriously.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:31 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Don't flat tubes inherently have worse geometry anyway? I always saw it as a fad to complete with upcoming lcd/plasma by not looking so outdated.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:56 am 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1104
Einzelherz wrote:
Don't flat tubes inherently have worse geometry anyway?


Do the 24" and 32" BVM-D/A from Sony have "worse geometry"? I don't think so.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 4818
Location: EU
Lawfer wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
Don't flat tubes inherently have worse geometry anyway?


Do the 24" and 32" BVM-D/A from Sony have "worse geometry"? I don't think so.

Large flat consumer Trinitrons though...ugh. I've seen several that needed more than just a little time in the service menu, even those with a relatively low mileage under 10,000hrs.

EDIT: but not the flat 21", those are almost always fine.
_________________
Image
Goompaolo9500 wrote:
Puyos are basically the things that you should shoot to counter nuisance puyos


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:40 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Sao Paulo BR
Image quality (to my eyes) is always better in 20" models then larger ones. I think 20" is the sweet spot for CRTs, even if 29" look great on arcade machines.
I don't think geometry is always worse in 29" and bigger monitors, but based on many user reports and personal experience, 29" and above are much more likely to present geometry issues then 20" screens (bigger = more likely to present such issues).
I'd say 29" is as far as you can go without having (sooner or later) geometry issues. I have seen many 29" WEGA TVs with OK picture quality despite having years of use on them, but never bothered with 34" WEGAs (heavy as hell).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:42 pm 



Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 8
Here's a better question; what's the advantage of more lines vs. smaller pitch and vice versa?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:58 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 144
Location: Italy
OldSchoolGamer1203 wrote:
Here's a better question; what's the advantage of more lines vs. smaller pitch and vice versa?

It's not a trade-off. Actually, they go hand in hand - the pitch is the distance between phosphors triads on the screen, and the more resolution (or lines) your screen needs to resolve the more densely packed together (ie finer pitch on the mask that's beetween the electron gun and the phosphors) your colored dots have to be (all other things equal).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:20 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1104
danielretrogamer wrote:
Image quality (to my eyes) is always better in 20" models then larger ones. I think 20" is the sweet spot for CRTs, even if 29" look great on arcade machines.
I don't think geometry is always worse in 29" and bigger monitors, but based on many user reports and personal experience, 29" and above are much more likely to present geometry issues then 20" screens (bigger = more likely to present such issues).
I'd say 29" is as far as you can go without having (sooner or later) geometry issues. I have seen many 29" WEGA TVs with OK picture quality despite having years of use on them, but never bothered with 34" WEGAs (heavy as hell).


The biggest 4:3 Broadcast Monitors that are/were made were at most between 19"-20" whether they be from Sony, Ikegami, JVC or otherwise, were there any 4:3 Broadcast Monitors bigger than 20"?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:41 am 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 47
Lawfer wrote:
danielretrogamer wrote:
Image quality (to my eyes) is always better in 20" models then larger ones. I think 20" is the sweet spot for CRTs, even if 29" look great on arcade machines.
I don't think geometry is always worse in 29" and bigger monitors, but based on many user reports and personal experience, 29" and above are much more likely to present geometry issues then 20" screens (bigger = more likely to present such issues).
I'd say 29" is as far as you can go without having (sooner or later) geometry issues. I have seen many 29" WEGA TVs with OK picture quality despite having years of use on them, but never bothered with 34" WEGAs (heavy as hell).


The biggest 4:3 Broadcast Monitors that are/were made were at most between 19"-20" whether they be from Sony, Ikegami, JVC or otherwise, were there any 4:3 Broadcast Monitors bigger than 20"?


Image

I mean, that really all depends on whether you'd consider this "broadcast" worthy or not; I wouldn't and it really shouldn't, but some might.
_________________
More scanlines than your body has room for.
No, Seriously.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:14 am 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1104
That's a PVM, PVM are Professional Monitors, Broadcast Monitors on the other hands are BVM.

The only BVM monitors from Sony that I know of which are bigger than 20" are 16:9.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:15 am 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 1729
Location: Kentucky
I feel like those big, low-res PVMs (as in ~500 TVL) are probably on par with their late consumer sets, but we don't really know hard numbers on the consumer end of things so it's not like I could say for sure. (Of course I just saw the one just posted supports 31kHz, which is of course a big plus)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:40 am 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1104
bobrocks95 wrote:
I feel like those big, low-res PVMs (as in ~500 TVL) are probably on par with their late consumer sets, but we don't really know hard numbers on the consumer end of things so it's not like I could say for sure. (Of course I just saw the one just posted supports 31kHz, which is of course a big plus)


Well look at the date "1989" that's vintage (plus it weights 200 kg, like hell...), you'll get a better picture from one of the good KV consumer-grade CRT models build 10 years later.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:09 am 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 47
Lawfer wrote:
That's a PVM, PVM are Professional Monitors, Broadcast Monitors on the other hands are BVM.


I'm aware, that's why I added "I wouldn't and it really shouldn't, but some might."
_________________
More scanlines than your body has room for.
No, Seriously.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:50 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 848
I, too, love getting hung up on terminology to defend my argument.

And 500tvl isn't low res, especially for their time. I'd wager the later SD wegas were in the 300-400 range.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:58 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Sao Paulo BR
PVM 4300 :shock: :shock: :shock:

holy sony! that's a monster.
I've always knew Godzilla played videogames, but didn't know he was into SONY PVM.
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1104
There is actually an even bigger one, the KX-45ED1. It was released in 1988 and weights also 200kg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5DS6R273jQ


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 4818
Location: EU
Yep. Besides the Sony KX-45ED1/T rumor says Mitsubishi made and sold a number of 61" and quickly discontinued them, too fragile.

61" tube lol, how heavy would that be, about a ton?
_________________
Image
Goompaolo9500 wrote:
Puyos are basically the things that you should shoot to counter nuisance puyos


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:31 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 1104
Xyga wrote:
Yep. Besides the Sony KX-45ED1/T rumor says Mitsubishi made and sold a number of 61" and quickly discontinued them, too fragile.

61" tube lol, how heavy would that be, about a ton?


Wouldn't surprised if it was around ~325kg. Wonder what's the dot pitch on that one.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:38 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 144
Location: Italy
The 61" Mitsu was probably just some kind of prototype (if it ever existed).

And btw the PVM-4300 is also a 45" (43" viewable). The KX-45 is 15/31kHz as well so it is most likely the same tube, probably even the same electronics. Most likely they sold like four PVM-4300 and tried te recoup the costs by marketing it to consumers a few years later.

Anyway, please pay attention to these precautions when shopping for a PVM-4300:

Image

:lol:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:14 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Sao Paulo BR
Yeah, I noticed the HILARIOUS note on the manual/brochure. :mrgreen:
I can only imagine a japanese guy trying to fit a 34" or 45" CRT TV in his Tokyo apartment.
If you combine that and “Electric Soldier Porygon” でんのうせんしポリゴン POKEMON episode, you got a mass destruction weapon. Just aim the screen and press play :lol:
I mean how close would you have to sit to the TV in one of those small apartments? :?

https://twitter.com/OutRunner_/status/864923171815862272


Last edited by danielretrogamer on Fri May 19, 2017 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 1729
Location: Kentucky
Einzelherz wrote:
I, too, love getting hung up on terminology to defend my argument.

And 500tvl isn't low res, especially for their time. I'd wager the later SD wegas were in the 300-400 range.


Considering the size though, it'll look MUCH less sharp than a 20" 500TVL monitor, no?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 1698
Location: Up on the mountains, drifting with the 86
bobrocks95 wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
I, too, love getting hung up on terminology to defend my argument.

And 500tvl isn't low res, especially for their time. I'd wager the later SD wegas were in the 300-400 range.


Considering the size though, it'll look MUCH less sharp than a 20" 500TVL monitor, no?

yep

the performance of the TVL parameter is tied up to the screen size indeed. 500 TVL for a 43" is very low actually... It could stand to be 800.
But funnily enough, those huge monitors, while they need a somewhat high TVL count for their size (say, 800. This is what my 35" NEC has and while it's perfectly fine, I wouldn't want a lower count then that. It start being too soft), don't need an über high count à la 1000 or over because when watching them, we are quite a distance away due to the huge screen.

BTW my late 36" consumer Trinitron has around 700 TVL.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:05 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 85
FinalBaton wrote:
BTW my late 36" consumer Trinitron has around 700 TVL.


Do you have a source for this by chance? I searched a few times and could never find out from an official Sony spec document (or similar) what TV Line counts my FS120's and FV300/310's have and I've always been curious. Thanks.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:38 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 1698
Location: Up on the mountains, drifting with the 86
Dochartaigh wrote:
Do you have a source for this by chance? I searched a few times and could never find out from an official Sony spec document (or similar) what TV Line counts my FS120's and FV300/310's have and I've always been curious. Thanks.

No official source, it's just my estimate.

I started my calculation with the dot pitch, then calculated how many columns of phospor there were across the whole screen's width, and then calculated how many there were across a screen width that's equal to the screen height.
I know this is no perfect number, since the display's sharpness is dictated by other things, but it at least gives a good number to speculate on.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:56 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 85
If I got REALLY bored, I was literally going to take a toothpick (as a pointing tool) and try to count them left to right at some point lol


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:01 am 



Joined: 29 Apr 2015
Posts: 7
I just recently picked up a Toshiba 32" CRT, 329P8NZ.. an SD beast with S-Video and RGB Scart.. but I'm struggling to find any information on it.. specifically how to get into the service mode.. looks pretty good using Pi2scart

Anyone have any ideas or information.. ImageImage

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:16 am 



Joined: 16 Nov 2013
Posts: 254
Location: Tokyo, Japan
I thought my BVM 32 was heavy enough, but it is just half of that PVM monster... holy shit. :lol:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:48 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Sao Paulo BR
muggsy wrote:
I just recently picked up a Toshiba 32" CRT, 329P8NZ.. an SD beast with S-Video and RGB Scart.. but I'm struggling to find any information on it.. specifically how to get into the service mode.. looks pretty good using Pi2scart

Anyone have any ideas or information.. ImageImage

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



Looks great! Maybe if you find the service menu info about another Toshiba model it will work on yours, manufacturers don't change the setup modes very often between models.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4537 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 148, 149, 150, 151, 152  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Nekoi and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group