Autofire solutions for the OutZone PCB

[Dave_K.]

[MOD EDIT: This is split from Sven666's awesome list of shmup DVD's and VHS'. To put in context, I had mentioned that the SGAD touhou OutZone DVD was based on 'autofire on' playthoughs, when the original PCB never had autofire for all weapons. spadgy]

which is a shame in that people playing off the PCB (which isn't compatible with my stick's autofire circuit) can't really learn many strategies.

Spadgy, you need a real arcade autofire PCB, not a console stick with autofire.

[sven666]

word, nice collection there dave

outzone doesnt really require an autofire circuit tho, it makes it easier on the hands but doesnt really give much of a scoring advantage and the game is manageable without one..

[spadgy]

I see. I've seen those come up on here every now and then. I'll have to buy myself one.

easier on the hands

And that's why I need one! Combined with all the skateboarding falls, button tapping has turned my wrists into a slightly painful mess.

Anyway - sorry; I'm taking this a little off topic!

[Ghegs]

which is a shame in that people playing off the PCB (which isn't compatible with my stick's autofire circuit) can't really learn many strategies.

Spadgy, you need a real arcade autofire PCB, not a console stick with autofire.

Really? Why is that? I can't imagine how the game itself could "see" where the fast button-tapping rate is coming from. I wonder how my modded Saturns pads would work with it.

spadgy, you can always split the thread if the need arises.

[spadgy]

spadgy, you can always split the thread if the need arises.

As I feel the need to talk about this more, I think I should (though there's something odd about a mod splitting a thread he's taken off topic! Mybe it's just immensely postmodern meta-modding; which is even more terrible!).

[spadgy]

Now I've done the split, I'll carry on!

Basically, I have one of these installed in my stick, and as specified when I put in an order to have one made over on AO, it doesn't work with all games. Or maybe I'm just using it wrong!

Here's a pic of it:

[emphatic]

Now I've done the split, I'll carry on!

Basically, I have one of these installed in my stick, and as specified when I put in an order to have one made over on AO, it doesn't work with all games. Or maybe I'm just using it wrong!

Here's a pic of it:

Nice floor, I took that photo @ my old place.

What you can do (what you should always do if button layout allows) is to get a signal split harness to the button you want to put use the auto-fire circuit with and route the split signal to a "free" button. Now with button A and C (example for two button games) sending the same input signal to the PCB, add the autofire circuit to the C button's GND connector and use it for the fixed weapon, then switch to button A for the "aim" weapon.

A split harness will have a spade connector that splits into two quick connects (just like on the circuit in the picture actually sans the circuit itself).

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ---> BUTTON A signal connector
JAMMA Button 1<--------
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ---> BUTTON C signal connector

[alamone]

Always better to map the autofire to a spare button if you have enough in your layout.
For example in Gradius, you want laser to use normal, but normal or double to use rapid.
Or games that use charge shot, etc.

I use an adjustable autofire circuit from yahoo, the one geared for Battle Garegga.
By adding some transistors and resistors I can make it so that spare buttons
on a common ground pinout can trigger rapid fire on other buttons.

However it only has enough for 2 buttons, which is annoying because
in Gradius, B and C are shot and missile...
I soldered a 15 pin -> 15 pin converter that remaps the buttons for this case.

I think the easiest way to do it is just to have one of those in-line JAMMA
autofire boards that maps rapid A, B to C, D or something similar.

Edit: Also, ideally, your rapid fire circuit should be the Sync type
(i.e. timed to coincide with the VSYNC signal on the CSYNC)
rather than some dodgy 555 circuit or something similar.

[Dave_K.]

which is a shame in that people playing off the PCB (which isn't compatible with my stick's autofire circuit) can't really learn many strategies.

Spadgy, you need a real arcade autofire PCB, not a console stick with autofire.

Really? Why is that? I can't imagine how the game itself could "see" where the fast button-tapping rate is coming from. I wonder how my modded Saturns pads would work with it.

I just meant you don't want to use a console stick for the very reason alamone mentioned:

Edit: Also, ideally, your rapid fire circuit should be the Sync type
(i.e. timed to coincide with the VSYNC signal on the CSYNC)
rather than some dodgy 555 circuit or something similar.

I would think a console stick should still work, but will not be able to get to optimal speed unless its sync'd to the PCB's refresh/frame rate.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Yep, console arcade sticks/d-pads with built-in auto-fire functionality will work with a supergun setup...it's just that the sync rate won't match up with said booted-up PCB (will definitely be "off-key" but it's better than having no auto-fire functionality whatsoever).

Let's say for example, try playing a game session of Capcom's HyperDyne Sidearms PCB (circa 1986) and pick up the full auto-fire power up and notice how fast it's firing. Next, try using an external arcade auto-fire PCB hack with Sidearms PCB and you'll notice that the default auto-fire settings are indeed faster than if you were to use an external auto-fire PCB setup. So for a serious SA session, it's recommended to play with just the standard forward auto-fire power-up for your 1CC or 2CC session -- worked wonders for me back in 1988 (considering of it's arcade-spec 60fps framerate and unrentless gameplay, especially with the armored mechanized centipede enemies homing on you in super tight close fighting areas).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[spadgy]

Nice floor, I took that photo @ my old place.

Your taste in wood is... er.... floorless. (Thank you. I'm here all night).

Anyway, this is why I struggle with this kind of thing. I don't even know what a 'signal split harness'. I need to teach myself more of the tech stuff.

And thanks to everyone for all your help.

[gct]

Someone please explain how the arcade autofire works.

Does it fire at a specified rate beginning from the moment you press the button (possibly out of phase with sync refresh), or do you press the button and then the circuit waits until the next screen refresh signal and then fires at the specified rate?

If out-of-phase doesn't matter, I don't see why an adjustable circuit with a perfectly tuned potentiometer or a programmable microcontroller-based circuit wouldn't do just as well.

[Dave_K.]

Someone please explain how the arcade autofire works.

Does it fire at a specified rate beginning from the moment you press the button (possibly out of phase with sync refresh), or do you press the button and then the circuit waits until the next screen refresh signal and then fires at the specified rate?

For synchronous autofire boards, the fire pulse is timed to the refresh rate of the PCB. 1/2 the refresh is the maximum fire rate. Some boards have a switch to also do 1/4 refresh. For timer+potentiometer based PCB (like the older Sanwa MGM04 at the top of the pic) you could certainly try to fine tune the rate to match the game's refresh, but have a better chance of being out of phase (missing frames/shots) or exceeding 1/2 refresh (slowing down rate of fire).

I don't see why an adjustable circuit with a perfectly tuned potentiometer or a programmable microcontroller-based circuit wouldn't do just as well.

Arcade PCBs do not all use the same 60hz refresh rate like console games, some have odd refresh rates out to 5 decimals, so although you could try to fine tune a potentiometer and get pretty close results, it will still not be maximum or likely be out of phase.

[gct]

Thanks for the explanation. A sort of PWM function in microcontroller code could be customized to arbitrary precision allowable by the controller architecture, but I guess you are saying that even a perfect-width pulse wave would still be poor if out of phase?

[Dave_K.]

Correct.

[gct]

Great, I think I understand now. So for OutZone in particular - it's the only PCB I have where this might benefit - any specific autofire product you would recommend? I never thought about it at all until ave came over last time, I never played any of my games (even Daisenpuu when I had it) with autofire before.

[rancor]

They have a great autofire circuit at Mak that I've picked up for a few people over the years:

http://www.mak-jp.com/ctrbox.html

[Dave_K.]

They have a great autofire circuit at Mak that I've picked up for a few people over the years:

http://www.mak-jp.com/ctrbox.html

Yeah, that's my favorite (it's the bottom one in the pic above). I modified mine to remap the clean buttons at the same time.

[gct]

Thanks rancor, I will keep that in mind and might ask you to send one over sometime next year. I have some rather urgent academic issues demanding my attention for the next months so I shouldn't be distracting myself with the supergun.

[spadgy]

They have a great autofire circuit at Mak that I've picked up for a few people over the years:

http://www.mak-jp.com/ctrbox.html

So you're in a position to be able to offer one of those Rancor? If so I might have to treat myself relatively soon.

[cools]

Likewise. Saves scouring YAJ... UK group order?

[rancor]

So you're in a position to be able to offer one of those Rancor? If so I might have to treat myself relatively soon.

yeah! Very easy for me to stop in as I change trains at Akihabara every day during my commute. Just let me know and I can pop in and get one for anyone here!

Likewise. Saves scouring YAJ... UK group order?

Would save a bundle on shipping, that's for sure. I could mail everything out to one person via EMS and they could distribute to those in-country. Just let me know a week or so beforehand, as everytime I've gone in there they only have one or two in stock. I'll call the store in advance and let them know I'm coming.

[spadgy]

I think you've credited me with cools' work Rancor!

Anyway, cools, we're not really in the same part of the UK are we? Still, I'd be happy to share an order, and then send you on (or have you send me) the autofire circuit.

[cools]

Economies of scale - depends how many Rancor can ship in one box (shipping split amongst items then) compared to internal UK shipping

[rancor]

Went to MAK today to pick up the autofire circuits for some folks that PM'd me. They're closed until the 30th so I was unable to get them. I'll head back out there on Wednesday and try again!

[spadgy]

How much are they Rancor? Let me know if you'd rather keep this to PM.

[Estebang]

I'm against playing OutZone with autofire. It ruins a crucial tradeoff of the weapons system: only the standard shot has autofire, and it can fire in any direction, but it's much harder and riskier to use.

[spadgy]

Good point. I do admit I always prefer scores without autofire if that's the default.

However, as detailed above, it's possible (I think!) to map two buttins to the same 'button'; one with autofire and one without; perfect for OutZone!

And, my wrists hurt.

[emphatic]

I'll try to post a picture of my signal splitter harness as soon as I have the time to finish it. It's very easy to do (if you have the parts).

[emphatic]

I got the signal splitter done today. Very easy to do if you just have the parts at hand: