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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:42 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:
Can you post a full screen shot of Mars Matrix with scanlines? Do you have Giga Wing too? :)


Sorry, I don't have Giga Wing. Here's a full screen comparison shot of Mars Matrix: http://www.emphatic.se/SLG3000/mars_matrix_huge.jpg


Looks very nice :) There is still some bad horizontal scaling (obviously because the strange CPS3 resolution is scaled to 640x480). Still it looks a million times better than without scanlines.

I have already ordered one :)
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:49 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
Looks very nice :) There is still some bad horizontal scaling (obviously because the strange CPS3 resolution is scaled to 640x480). Still it looks a million times better than without scanlines.


My screen is 16:10 and stretches the 480p output to fullscreen as well.

Konsolkongen wrote:
I have already ordered one :)


:D
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:02 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
My screen is 16:10 and stretches the 480p output to fullscreen as well.


Yes but that's not what I meant. I know some people like stretching 4:3 to 16:9 so I didn't want to comment on that :)

The game is very badly scaled on its own and looks terrible no matter the aspect ratio. I haven't played my Mars Matrix and Giga Wing for years. The added scanlines will change that :)
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 Post subject: ot: slg galore
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:11 pm 



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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:25 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:29 pm 


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You should hook them all up in a series and see if they will all power up without external PSU. You could also use them to make your screen all black by setting three of them to scanline the odd lines, and the other two the even. That's what I would do :)
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:08 am 


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PS3 component @ 480p > XSelect > SLG3000 > ASUS LCD

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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:02 am 



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Hello,

Below are my results. My specs are:

TV: 34XBR960
XBOX1 - emulators used CoinOps EPIC & Mednafen NES
Startech 2 Way VGA HDTV Video Converter (my TV only has component & HDMI)

For the hell of it, I decided to test at 720p. I played around with the dip switches till the scanlines looked correct.

First game up: MEGA MAN

Image
No scanlines, point filtering (perfect pixel settings used)

Image
Scanlines - signal input VGA-RGB

Image
Scanlines - signal input YUV*

* I decided to try this and it seemed to work well. Basically, instead of having the SLG3000 come before the video converter and work its magic on the VGA-RGB signal from the XBOX, I decided to put it on the other end, where it would receive a YUV signal instead.

This worked OK, however, if I turned the scanlines up to high intensity, the screen would become tinted green. (You can see that Mega Man has a bit of cast) Also, when I tried using the SLG3000 on just a plain YUV signal, without the converter, it didn't work - it just made the screen lose saturation and go b&w in some instances. I'm guessing that this has something to do with whatever the converter does to the VGA signal. Maybe Fudoh will have some ideas on why this is.

Some more examples below.

RASTAN

Image
No scanlines, point filtering (perfect pixel settings used) - sorry, shaky hands :)

Image
Scanlines - signal input VGA-RGB

Image
Scanlines - signal input YUV*

MS PAC MAN

Image
No scanlines, point filtering (perfect pixel settings used)

Image
Scanlines - signal input YUV*


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:15 am 


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SailorSat (invented the soft15Khz) has pushed the SLG to it`s limits:

2048x1536 60Hz

apparently the sync intervalls are then to short to give the unit enough power... but that`s far beyond our expectations.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:12 pm 


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Did the SLG3000 melted and turned into a T-1000? :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:17 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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The only odd thing is that I can't seem to get the scanlines to work properly with the XBOX in 480p mode. The dreamcast is fine however, so it must have something to do with the XBOX VGA signal. Could also be due to user error. :)

I'll test more and let you know what I find.

Has anyone else tested with a YUV signal?

bencao74 wrote:
SailorSat (invented the soft15Khz) has pushed the SLG to it`s limits:

2048x1536 60Hz

apparently the sync intervalls are then to short to give the unit enough power... but that`s far beyond our expectations.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:49 pm 


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Quote:
The only odd thing is that I can't seem to get the scanlines to work properly with the XBOX in 480p mode.

I don't get it, sorry. The above screenshots don't look like a 720p signal. On a 720p carrier signal, you'd get 360 scanlines. If you're running a emulated 240p game, that's a surplus of 50% which would mean you'd 15 scanlines over 10 pixels of the original source.

If I have a look a the Rockman sprite, that's not the case. Apart from one extra scanline (on the chin; that's causes because the NES has like 224 lines (instead of 240) which are upscaled to 480/720p on the Xbox), that looks pretty much like one scanline per pixel, so the output of the XBox (or whatever you're feeding into the SLG3000) has to be 480p (or 720p with large black borders and a 480p picture in the middle).


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:45 pm 


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Location: Maryland, USA
bencao74 wrote:
SailorSat (invented the soft15Khz) has pushed the SLG to it`s limits:

2048x1536 60Hz

apparently the sync intervalls are then to short to give the unit enough power... but that`s far beyond our expectations.

In that case, would it continue to function with external power? I'm going to be needing this to drive my 32768p signals in the future...


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:01 pm 


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no clue, another limiting factor is then the resolution of the used ICs. But possible ;)

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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:21 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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Hi Fudoh,

I'm 99% certain they are 720p. I double checked by making the TV display what the resolution was. I will try to take a video this weekend so you can see what I mean. I'll also try out the 360. Its possible the converter is doing something odd as well.

Talk soon

Fudoh wrote:
I don't get it, sorry. The above screenshots don't look like a 720p signal. On a 720p carrier signal, you'd get 360 scanlines. If you're running a emulated 240p game, that's a surplus of 50% which would mean you'd 15 scanlines over 10 pixels of the original source.

If I have a look a the Rockman sprite, that's not the case. Apart from one extra scanline (on the chin; that's causes because the NES has like 224 lines (instead of 240) which are upscaled to 480/720p on the Xbox), that looks pretty much like one scanline per pixel, so the output of the XBox (or whatever you're feeding into the SLG3000) has to be 480p (or 720p with large black borders and a 480p picture in the middle).


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:28 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
If I have a look a the Rockman sprite, that's not the case. Apart from one extra scanline (on the chin; that's causes because the NES has like 224 lines (instead of 240) which are upscaled to 480/720p on the Xbox), that looks pretty much like one scanline per pixel, so the output of the XBox (or whatever you're feeding into the SLG3000) has to be 480p (or 720p with large black borders and a 480p picture in the middle).

I can't tell which Rockman game that is just by looking at it, but it's quite possible that Rockman 9-10 actually run at 240p since they were never FC/NES games to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:20 pm 


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Could be, but nevertheless I see APPROX. one scanline per pixel, so it can't be 720p, but has to something close to 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:16 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 309
I will report back and let you know.

The images are from the original Mega Man.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:55 pm 



Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 41
Location: Japan
StarCreator wrote:
I can't tell which Rockman game that is just by looking at it, but it's quite possible that Rockman 9-10 actually run at 240p since they were never FC/NES games to begin with.


I wish. Can't speak for the 360 or PS3 ports, but the Wii versions run at 480i (even when the console is set to 480p). An XRGB-3 running in B1 generally gets the right picture, but of course no scanlines.

Until now. Got my SLG-3000 and put it through its paces. Wii > XRGB-3 B1 > SLG-3000 make Megaman 9/10 really look like they're back in the NES era of CRT TVs. Also looks nice with other 'retro'-styled titles like FF4: The After Years and the modern-retro Konami titles like Castlevania Adventure or Contra (note: the title/cut-scene screens in the Konami games and the FF4:TAY font are higher resolution so they just look darker or pseudo-anti-aliased). Note that some games work better with DIP 4 set vs DIP 5 and vice versa. This is very apparent on 480i titles in particular which contain 240p imagery; one setting renders correctly while the other setting renders as a blurry mess. It all comes down to the game and your linedoubler.

Note that due to how the rendering engines were designed, some of these games look much sharper if you set the Wii to 4:3 instead of 16:9 + scaling your display's screen (this is extremely noticeable in Megaman 10 and Castlevania Adventure). This is regardless of any XRGB-3 or SLG-3000 use.

Tested out the Dreamcast with Marvel vs Capcom and Marvel vs Capcom 2 through a VGA adapter. Worked perfectly. MvsC2 was a nice surprise, the characters are properly scaled for use with scanlines such that their looks benefit from the application of the scanlines (although the HUD, background, etc. are at a higher resolution and end up looking darker). I doubt that would be an 'authentic' arcade experience given this was a NAOMI-based game originally that ran at 640x480, correct me if I'm wrong. Still looks nice though.

Also tested out the SLG-3000 with a PS2. The games on Street Fighter Anniversary Collection look perfect, but just to drive the point home about the DIP settings, the SF2: Hyper Fighting needs one of the DIP settings while SF3: 3rd Strike needs the other DIP setting, otherwise a blurry mess ensues. :roll: A minor inconvenience at worst. Meant to try Mega Man Anniversary Collection but didn't (480i title), I'd expect results similar to Megaman 9 and 10. Mega Man X Collection was fine, but it already outputs at 240p so the XRGB-3 already took care of that before.

As a bonus experiment I also pulled out my copy of FFX and gave it a run (note: this game has a 'unique' resolution of 512x416 before scaling by the PS2, which makes it a bit difficult to work with; if you use any of those HD Xploder-styled solutions to output 480p from a PS2, it comes out in the wrong aspect ratio). Tried in XRGB-3 B1 mode without the SLG-3000; a rather bad solution, too much detail is lost from the image thanks to line-doubling. The SLG-3000 makes it better, but to be blunt, I found less detail was lost hooking the game up directly via S-video to my old Commodore monitors (shadow-mask or scanlined versions) than doing this. XRGB-3 B0 mode at 1024x768 + SLG-3000 scanlines wasn't a bad look; the placement of the 1024x768 version of the SLG-3000's scanlines gave the game a higher resolution look (while of course still rendering at the original resolution, getting scaled by the PS2 and then getting scaled by the XRGB-3), effectively pseudo-anti-aliasing at the expense of a slightly darker image and the scanlines. This is a game that really just needs a good deinterlacer rather than scanlines, but if it floats your boat then that's your call.

Apologies for the lack of imagery to go along with this.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:31 pm 


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Unit #42 arrived today in New York City. I was in the second group of shipped orders. I'm still waiting on my HDBoxPro.

I've tested it on CRT and LCD monitors using MAME and various console emulators. Results are fabulous.


Last edited by Cugel on Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:02 pm 



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Posts: 309
I thought that the Wii could output in 240p for Virtual Console games?

Hats off to you for playing MM 9 & 10. Those games are ridiculously tough!


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:46 pm 



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Location: Japan
Sad to say I still have to finish 'em. Got stuck on 9 toward the end. D:

It's true that the Wii can output 240p in Virtual Console games, it just doesn't for all of them. Some examples:

- NES-based SMB2j can output in 240p
- Arcade-based Space Harrier can output in 240p
- TG16/PCE-based Castlevania Dracula X can output in 240p
- TG16/PCE-based Bomberman '93 can NOT output in 240p, it'll run as 480i instead (even though it was originally a 240p title on the TG16/PCE)

Mega Man 9 and 10 are technically classified as WiiWare instead of Virtual Console, which just means they aren't emulated games. Given WiiWare is built from the ground up, I can only guess the designers don't see a need for making 240p games for today's modern systems. For that I can't entirely find them at fault, it's archaic by today's standard and some modern equipment just won't be able to interpret those signals correctly. I expect the bulk of WiiWare games don't limit themselves to 240 lines of resolution in their graphical content either. If there are any 240p-compatible WiiWare games I'd be interested in knowing which ones they are. What's silly is when the WiiWare games only output at 480i (liked Mega Man 9 and 10) and not 480p (like the Konami games), those just cause the possibility of getting an unnecessary flickering or jumpiness depending on the game engine and your deinterlacing/linedoubling equipment. You can have comparatively accurate releases like the PS2 version of SF3:Third Strike which has a very clean picture when run through a line-doubler, and then the messy releases like the PS2 version of Mushihime (TATE-mode) which still has a lot of scrolling issues even when run through a line-doubler. Even the SLG-3000 won't entirely hide that.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:02 am 


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A couple quick observations, most of the emulators on my jailbroken PS3 don't display properly through the SLG3000. With the exception of Mednafen, all of the emulators switch video modes (the PS3 menu displays perfectly) where the scanlines don't change in intensity and adjusting the pot changes the brightness of the non-scanline image. And it completely loses sync routed through the XRGB when the video modes switch. Weird.

I'm not entirely sure yet, but since it's an overlay, I think the SLG helps cover up the shaky vertical sync of the XRGB in B1. I've been having problem with my Genesis(s) and with the SLG I've pretty much got it tweaked to where it's almost unnoticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:08 am 


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If the SLG doesn't display scanlines but changes the picture's brightness instead, although the picture has the right resolution (480p), that's caused by the wrong sync polarity. I can emulate this on my DVDO processor where I can change the horizontal and vertical sync polarity by hand to whatever I like.

I'm wondering though how the PS3 can influence this when outputting a 480p YUV signal. You wouldn't happen to have a PAL PS3 which outputs 576i/p as a minimum resolution ?


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:26 am 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 309
Hey,

Try messing with the dip switches. I've gotten the SLG to sync correctly with all the switches sent to ON or ON ON ON OFF OFF.

I have to test more properly this weekend when I have more time and I'm not sleep deprived.

Hope this helps


SGGG2 wrote:
A couple quick observations, most of the emulators on my jailbroken PS3 don't display properly through the SLG3000. With the exception of Mednafen, all of the emulators switch video modes (the PS3 menu displays perfectly) where the scanlines don't change in intensity and adjusting the pot changes the brightness of the non-scanline image. And it completely loses sync routed through the XRGB when the video modes switch. Weird.

I'm not entirely sure yet, but since it's an overlay, I think the SLG helps cover up the shaky vertical sync of the XRGB in B1. I've been having problem with my Genesis(s) and with the SLG I've pretty much got it tweaked to where it's almost unnoticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:48 am 


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Fudoh wrote:
If the SLG doesn't display scanlines but changes the picture's brightness instead, although the picture has the right resolution (480p), that's caused by the wrong sync polarity. I can emulate this on my DVDO processor where I can change the horizontal and vertical sync polarity by hand to whatever I like.

I'm wondering though how the PS3 can influence this when outputting a 480p YUV signal. You wouldn't happen to have a PAL PS3 which outputs 576i/p as a minimum resolution ?


No, I have a US launch model CECHA01. But it *does* display scanlines. It's just the intensity does not change, rather the brightness of the non-scanlined segments. If you play with the pot you can get it so the scanlines disappear when the levels match. I'll test this out with the HDFury when my DVI/HDMI adapter arrives (and mess with the dip settings, too).

Got around to testing the Dreamcast. Some of the best results yet.

Image
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Image
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Image
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Image


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:15 am 



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Nice.

I didn't realize the pots adjusted the intensity as well. I'll have mess with that.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:05 am 


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Wow Marvelous Capcom 2 looks great! :)
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:04 am 


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I got around to testing the 360 with my tate monitor. I am using a 20 inch multi sync sony PVM. It handles 240p on up to 1080i natively. I hooked up the 360 via vga and component.

I noticed that all the cave ports actually handles by cave themselves work great with VGA and component @ 480p. But this post is mostly about Ketsui and DOJ BL.

1st off Ketsui and DOJ BL look fantastic on my PVM when I switch my 360 to low res (480i). It might be parshly due to the way my PVM display's a 480i image and it's only 20 inches. I do get a solid scanline inbetween the two interlaced lines of the 480I image. I have to all but have my nose pressed against the screen to see the interlacing in game. I would bet money i could fool you into thinking they were the PCB from a normal sitting distance.

I noticed when I used these 2 ports with the 360 set to 480p the picture was not at all as sharp as when I used 480i. I actually surprisingly preferred the 480i image to the VGA (480p) > SLG3000 image do to the softness/blurred image.

But this got me thinking to feed the XRGB3 the 480i image 1st in order to retain the crispness then feed the 480p image of the XRG3 through the SLG3000. This retained the crispness and now completely removes any traces of interlacing.

Now honestly with my 20 inch PVM the difference in picture between 480i straight into the monitor and sending it through the XRGB3 @ 480p on through to the SLG3000...... you literally have to get so close to the screen that you couldn't even begin to play the game let alone see the whole screen. But this kind of result may differ with another monitor (dunno, to much of a hassle to hook up to another RGB monitor right now just to test how much the fantastic 480i image is... due to my particular PVM).

I'll try to get pics in the next few days, but for those with those 2 ports, a tate display, and XRGB/linedoubler, along with the SLG3000 I would recommend trying the 360 @ 480i vs 480p. The 360 set @ 480i retains the crispness, while set @ 480p blurs the image a bit.

All the cave shooters (Deathsmiles is what I spent the most time with) that cave handles looked great either way, regardless of using the 360 @ 480p or using it set @ 480i with the XRGB3 > SLG3000.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:57 am 


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Strider77, how do you set your 360 to output 480i? I though the 640X480 from the console's resolution setting was always progressive. I'm using the VGA cable to hook it up on my LCD, by the way.
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