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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:53 pm 


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bencao74 wrote:
Quote:
I'm definitely still interested, but I think maybe I should wait until someone sells them as part of an enclosure with included power supply (can it be powered via a USB port on the Xbox 360?)... running it bare PCB doesn't really fly here and I don't have the requisite skills to develop an enclosure for it =/


yeah, the demand of PSU plus safe PSU jack and enclosure was stated in other forums as well. I`m working on this! :)


Welcome Bencao. Hehe, you too linger on all those arcady message boards, don't you? :-D
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:20 am 


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Hey Drachenherz,

never gets boring, for sure ;) nice to see you again :)
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:46 pm 


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Looks great! and so tiny!

My only complaint would be that there's no place for pcb feet which makes things a bit trickier to set up on my end.

Also, I'm thinking this will power the device http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... 2115549_-1

please correct me if I'm wrong.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:43 pm 


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Kingbuzzo wrote:
Looks great! and so tiny!

My only complaint would be that there's no place for pcb feet which makes things a bit trickier to set up on my end.

Also, I'm thinking this will power the device http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores ... 2115549_-1

please correct me if I'm wrong.


Hey,

jep, that true. With the upcoming acryl case there should then no issues anymore.

About the PSU, voltage is correct, but connector not. In the moment we`ve foreseen molex and screw terminals. But we´re planning in this direction to use only a simple jack...
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:51 pm 


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bencao74 wrote:
About the PSU, voltage is correct, but connector not. In the moment we`ve foreseen molex and screw terminals. But we´re planning in this direction to use only a simple jack...


Cool, was just wondering about the voltage and amps. It's simple enough to strip the wires.

Looking great so far!
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:02 pm 


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Quote:
Cool, was just wondering about the voltage and amps. It's simple enough to strip the wires.


okay :) winni has built in a voltage reversal protection, so you`re safe :)
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:10 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
For people who have the XRGB-3 there's little to gain for 15khz sources. While the SLG's scanlines should look as good as the XRGB's, you will have trouble finding a linedoubler as sharp as the XRGB.

It may sound strange, but I can't stand the XRGB's shaky vertical sync and plan on using the SLG3000 with B0 mode.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:48 pm 


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Quote:
and plan on using the SLG3000 with B0 mode.

I find the lower resolutions in the XRGB's B0 mode quite unsatisfying. B0 gets better the higher the output resolution get. While the SLG's ideal input resolution is 480p, this is really the XRGB's weak point in B0.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:28 pm 


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Oh, jeez. I thought that was my monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:08 pm 


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Happy new year to you all! :)

Here`re some pics and some news:

I put the external PSU jack on the board and after some tweaking it fits. It`s a 2,0mm inside pin with 4,3mm frame. Pin is 5V, frame is GND. BUT I didn't used a external PSU in all test setups. Our components was fine choosen and have low power. This way we did not need any PSU in our setup so far, because the whole circuit is feed from the SNYC signal. We keep the PSU interface just to be sure.

Image

And here`re some pic in actions

R-Type in 480p - without SLG
Image
Image

I put the SLG 3000 in between and it becomes near perfect :)
R-Type in 480p - with SLG
Image
Image
Image
Image

In this setup no potentiometers was used -> 100% scanlines.

ICade 60 in 1
Then I test out the ICade 60 in 1. It was flying here around.

Image
SLG again without external PSU
Image
Unfortunately 60-in-1 has vertical mode.
As far SLG get`s the sync the red led lights up. This is great for testing the boards, too.

Xbox360
Image
I put the SLG between xbox360 VGA cable and LCD 19" monitor with resolution settings to 480p.

Image
Image
Image
Ikaruga
Image
SSFIV

Okay, makes not really sense since this games supports real 480p. In this case potentiometer can be used to dimm down the scanlines.

Bye,

Jochen






It was worth all the hard work :)

Second good news



I put the external PSU jack on the board and after some tweaking it fits. It`s a 2,0mm inside pin with 4,3 frame. Pin is 5V, frame is GND. BUT!! Honestly I didn't used a external PSU in all test setups. Our components was fine choosen and are absolute low power. This way it`s possible that we do not need any PSU in our setup. We keep it just to be sure.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:40 pm 



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Looking good! And external PSU not essential, that's a rather nice feature :D
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:53 pm 



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Those pics are not showing up for me at work. Can anyone state if there is a benefit from using this device with an LCD monitor?
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:11 pm 


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Wow, no need for PSU is wonderful! Great!
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:41 am 


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Quote:
Can anyone state if there is a benefit from using this device with an LCD monitor?

360 + SLG3000 = Scanlines in any tate'able game. No need for software scanlines like Futari. Scanlined Ketsui ftw!

HDBoxPro + SLG3000 = $130 linedoubler with scanline support (compared to $400 for a XRGB-3).

Atom nettop + SLG3000 = the same, perfect scanlines in every emulator, without software options, without hassles.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:50 am 



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I'm so looking forward to playing around with this for my 31khz cab. I have both a PC, Xbox 360, Jamma and Naomi hooked up to it and have both an XRGB-3 and one of those CGA -> VGA converters so it's going to be fun to try out different combinations.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:51 am 



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Looks great. Hope it will be available real soon.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:51 pm 


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I wonder if my UVC->24kHz NANAO setup would profit from the SLG3000? I can always use it for my LCD screen of course, but having it in place and just turning the scanlines up for Ketsui Extra and DOJ BL EX would be nice.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:30 pm 



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I like the fact that there's no need for a power source for running this. I'm still wondering what it would be useful for if we really don't need it?
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:19 am 


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Quote:
I'm still wondering what it would be useful for if we really don't need it?


We`re not very sure why we don't need an external PSU. We assume that the sync signal spits out the needed voltage. Anyway we can't be sure that on every system the given sync will deliver the power. So we keep a psu connector just to be sure. Go with Screw Terminals then.

I tried yesterday the SLG on Naomi Universal Cab with Sanwa 29" monitor. Cab was equipped with a dreamcast and last border down. Again no PSU was needed and the scanlines comes in great.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:05 pm 


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Wow! Looks wonderful. Keep up the good work!!
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 Post subject: It's in the house and it rocks :)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:04 am 


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Ok, today I received a small parcel with the brandnew SLG3000 inside :) Thanks again to Jochen and Winni for the opportunity to give it a try!

Today's small, initial test run included a XRGB, a Dreamcast, a XBox360 and one of the many HDBoxPro clones around. Tomorrow I'll try it on a DVDO processor and early next week I'll test a Faroudja-based standalone linedoubler (Omega HDP) and a nettop PC with a bunch of emus.

The SLG3000 does not require a PSU, at least not with any of the sources I tried today. The SLG3000's output was connected to the input of an Extron RGB interface with one of the interface's outputs connected to my TV (Sony 52" HX900) and the second output to one of my computer Displays (21" NEC). All the sources I tried today are running at 480p output, so the DIP settings of the SLG are supposed to remain unchanged during the test.

The SLG's knob for setting the scanline intensity is a bit on the heavy side and I'll probably develop a blister from turning it a hundred times today, but hell, after having it set for a certain display it usually remains untouched. The scanlines can be disabled 100% by turning the knob completely to the left. Another way of disabling the scanline emulation is to shorten the two screw terminals (I haven't tried this though).

First I installed the SLG3000 behind the XRGB. The XRGB-3 can only overlay scanlines when the input signal is 240p. In order to make the XRGB work with the SLG the VERTICAL SYNC POLARITY of the XRGB has to be inverted in the menu. If the sync polarity isn't inverted, the SLG won't show scanlines, no matter which DIP switch settings. First I tried a 240p title (Fantasy Zone II DX) and the SLG's scanlines look just as good as the ones of the XRGB. They're applied pixel-perfect on every second line (unlike those overlay scanline effects in a bunch of emus). While the density knob only has a range of about 180°, it's very easy to set the desired scanline density. FZIIDX allows to switch between 240p, 480i and 480p on the fly and no matter which settings I choose, the scanlines remain solid - excellent!

Image

Next I tried two 480i-only titles on the PS2, the Metal Slug 3 Single release and Sengoku Ace II in the second Psikyo collection. Both titles look very nice, but due to their emulation in 480i rather than in 240p, the XRGB was not able to show them with scanlines in their full glory. The SLG changed this! Both titles were running in B1 with disabled scanline emulation and both titles looked stunning - actually every bit as good as native 240p title running through the XRGB. On Metal Slug 3 I found a small flicker to be visible after the scanlining process, but this could be completely eliminated by changing the DIP settings on the SLG3000. Instead of darkening every odd line, I had the SLG darken every even line. On Sengoku Ace 2 I had to re-invert this setting, but that's something I can live with....

On the Dreamcast I had a short intermezzo with SFIII 3rd Strike and on the 360 I played a round of DDP DFK. Both systems yielded very nice results. On the 360 I tried to up the resolution to 854x480, but this caused weird interference on my TV set and the SLG3000 wasn't able to properly work it's magic. So back to 480p it was.

To see how the cheaper upscaling solutions work with the SLG3000 I re-got myself a HDBoxPro clone to try it with the SLG's scanline emulation. And it sure does work great! The HDBoxPro doesn't offer completey artefact-free 240p and 480i deinterlacing as the XRGB does in B1, but it's a still a bargain for what it costs (about 45 EUR). I connected a PS2 and gave it a try with the same titles as above (FZIIDX, Metal Slug 3, Sengoku Ace 2) and with the motion detection level set to 0 the results were very nice. While FZIIDX was treated as 480i and thereforce exhibited some deinterlacing errors here and there, MS3 and Sengoku Ace II looked very nice on this setup as well.

Overall the SLG3000 initially performed gloriously. It's a wonderful little gadget which does exactly what it promised to do. The fact that no additional power supply is needed, makes the SLG3000 easy to install and easy to forget (over the test run with the XRGB I tried a few times to lower the scanline setting using the XRGB's remote while it was "hard-set" using the SLG). It works perfect with the sources I tried so far and shows no delay or picture degradation whatsoever.

Image

Who doesn't need the SLG3000 ?
If you're not interested in Scanlines whatsoever, the SLG3000 is nothing you need.

Who can use the SLG3000 ?
Anybody with a display supporting VGA input at 31khz. There's nothing to gain with the SLG3000 when using a 15khz tube and there's nothing to gain with higher resolutions like XGA. While the SLG supports higher resolutions, the scanlines get tiny and don't resemble the typical 15khz low-res effect anymore.

Yoko vs. Tate ?
Just like on the XRGB the scanlines always have horizontal orientation. So, if you want arcade-perfect presentation from your 360 shoot'em ups, you still need a rotateable display.

The SLG3000 directly works with every system supporting VGA output, e.g.
- Dreamcast
- XBox
- XBox360
- PCs for Doujin and emu play

The SLG3000 needs to be chained behind a linedoubler or upscaler when used with systems like:
- PC Engine
- Mega Drive / Genesis
- Super Famicom / SNES
- Playstation 1 / 2

The SLG3000 needs to be chained behind a transcoder with systems like:
- Playstation 3 (to play Neo Geo or PCE games)


to be continued...

(Screenshots: PS2 -> 480i component -> XRGB-3, B1, scanlines disabled -> SLG3000 -> display)


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:28 am 


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Winds of Thunder on PS3 (PS3 -> 480p Component -> transcoder -> SLG3000):

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:40 am 


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Fantastic! I'm getting one of these for sure to put between 360/PC and the UVC (24kHz). No more MAME scanlines or Ketsui Extra without 'em. :D Is it possible to turn the dip switch with stuff plugged in without risking the SLG3000? And when are they shipping/for sale?
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:46 am 


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Quote:
Is it possible to turn the dip switch with stuff plugged in without risking the SLG3000?

yes, no problem.

Quote:
And when are they shipping/for sale?

Winni has obviously finished the first batch and unless I (or the other testers) find something terribly wrong (which I can't imagine) I would suspect bencao74 to put them up at arcadeforge.de next week.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:53 am 



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Posts: 49
just want to thank the creators of this and say that I am really excited to buy this, it is what I have been wanting for a long time. I was hoping when I bought my xrgb2 many years ago that I could apply the scanlines to the vga input, but alas that does not work and I always wanted to see how all my doujin titles would look with scanlines. This will also be a huge help for emulators that don't have evenly spaced scanlines when I run them at resolutions lower than my monitors (when I run them at my monitors native resolution the scanlines are too small to have the desired effect).

Just one question (perhaps Fudoh could answer this). If I want scanlines added to 360 titles, I assume I would be better off feeding the vga output from my 360 direct through this compared to using the component out through my xrgb2 with its emulated scanlines?


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:38 am 


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Thanks Fudoh for letting us know your findings with this little amazing device!! I'd like to see a comparison between Ketsui running through a SLG3000 (+XRGB-3 I assume) and an emotia+XRGB-3 for scanline results on a LCD screen. Also would love to see more pics (DFK, DOJ, and some DC shmups) and the settings/hardware setup (linedoubler or upscaler, cables, etc) you recommend. I already own a XRGB-3 but will buy a SLG3000 next week. Looks god damn amazing!

I also have a couple of questions. Where does the emotia fit in all this? Since the SLG3000 can handle 480i pefectly I wonder if we need an emotia anymore. What does the Extron RGB you use exactly?

I thought the SLG3000 had just one knob. How do you darken every even line instead of darkening every odd line?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:32 am 


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Animaitor wrote:
Since the SLG3000 can handle 480i pefectly I wonder if we need an emotia anymore.


Well as the SLG3000 doesn't downscale the video input to 15kHz, the Emotias will still serve a purpose if you want to play on an SD CRT or an arcade monitor. But if you only use a VGA screen or an upscaler in the other end the SLG3000 seems to do all you need.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:58 pm 


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Quote:
Just one question (perhaps Fudoh could answer this). If I want scanlines added to 360 titles, I assume I would be better off feeding the vga output from my 360 direct through this compared to using the component out through my xrgb2 with its emulated scanlines?

I don't see how you can have the XRGB properly emulate scanlines on a 360's component signal (since it's 480i compared to 240p).

Quote:
I also have a couple of questions. Where does the emotia fit in all this? Since the SLG3000 can handle 480i pefectly I wonder if we need an emotia anymore.

You only need an Emotia if your target display is low-res 15khz. The combination of Emotia and XRGB (e.g. to put scanlines on 360 shmups) isn't neccessary anymore. It's easier and better to use the SLG3000 instead.

Quote:
What does the Extron RGB you use exactly?

it's just an interface which reworks the sync signal. My new TV won't sync to the XRGB all the times, so I use an Extron interface.

Quote:
I thought the SLG3000 had just one knob. How do you darken every even line instead of darkening every odd line?

you switch the Dip 4/5 settings. 4 off, 5 on = odd lines, 4 on, 5 off = even lines (or the other way around).

I'll do more screenshots as I go along...


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:24 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
I don't see how you can have the XRGB properly emulate scanlines on a 360's component signal (since it's 480i compared to 240p).


I feed the 480i signal from the 360 component cable through the adapter into the xrgb2+ D terminal and then turn on the xrgb's emulated scanlines. It does work, but I thought if I could feed the vga out from the 360 through the SLG3000 it would be much sharper.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:46 pm 


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Quote:
I feed the 480i signal from the 360 component cable through the adapter into the xrgb2+ D terminal and then turn on the xrgb's emulated scanlines

but you don't get "240p scanlines" using this. With a 480p signal from a 360 and the SLG3000 you get real scanlines, just like with a 240p source on the XRGB.


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