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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:49 am 


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Location: Vancouver, BC
I would like to know what exactly is going on in this device. Is it creating an aperture grill with scanline emulation? If so, we will probably soon be debating which kind of aperture grill and intensity to use :D.

Honestly looking forward to this device. I'd prefer a bare pcb personally... populated of course! Just not in a case.

So a class B tube is best with this? I'm assuming these aren't the tubes we find in the common Desktop CRT of yesteryear.

In that case, a decent lcd would be comparable to a class A crt?
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:48 pm 


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HI
I m in contact with Fudoh about usefull modifikations, even the possibility to use a potentiometer.
But we wanted to make it simply, just the dirty plugnplay solution. At reasonable price.
Fake of the aperture grill may be possible, too. But not jet, perhaps with another later version:)
I will work it out. Thanks for the hints and suggestions.
You cannot order a VW and expect a Mercedes, wie say in Germany!
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:07 pm 



Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 1772
Location: Denmark
I seem to have better understanding of this class B CRT business now. I plugged my CDX into my XRGB yesterday expecting to get the same to die for image quality that my Saturn gave me but was shocked by how much worse it looked.

I couldn't quite put a finger on the problem but then I got a bit close to the screen and noticed that inexplicably for Genesis game content my scanlines were more than twice as thick as the displayed pixels which were very thin lines. The Saturn gave me a much better ratio of scanline versus pixel height. I am not sure I can understand how it is even possible for such a thing to happen, but then this XRGB setup has a knack for surprising me very single day.

In this instance I think that I actually preferred how my LCD TV displayed the same image.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:06 pm 


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Joined: 22 Oct 2010
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Location: GERMANY
HI
I dont know much about XRGB and so on, but I m a passionatic analog technican, and NOT a gamer!
I have actually no proper digicam, I work on this prob.
Then you all can visit screenshots, taken from my old W2K system at different solutions.
The final version works on my worktop, really perfect. With POTENTIOMETER!! At all solutions.
Infinitely variable, from zero to ca. 70 % effect, then you can switch to 100 % to get the hardest image.
The development is finished, we have to order the components, wait, and produce the stuff!
I will keep you informed just in time.
Regards
Winfried
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:17 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 145
So what's the price range looking at? I was going to get myself an emotia on ebay, but the prices were still jacking up past $200 and I'm not in financial shape for getting one of those.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:55 am 


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It's said to be in the ~50 EUR range. At this price I consider it a must buy :)
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:27 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 301
Will this work the same as the Emotia and have RGB output? From what I'm seeing - it only outputs VGA.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:43 pm 


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Location: Germany
No, it's completely different than the Emotia. The Emotia produces a real 240p picture which will allow CRTs to display real scanlines. This one is a scanline generator/emulator. 31khz(+) VGA input and 31khz(+) VGA output. The scanlines become part of the actual signal.

It can replace an Emotia plus XRGB-2/3 on 360 setups, but unlike the Emotia (whose target group are users of 15khz monitors) this one is for 31khz CRTs and LCD/Plasma setups.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:13 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 145
Ok I've got a question based on what you said. If I ran a 480p image, then that gets 240p, but if I were to run.... lets say a ps1 game on my ps2 via component, will that work with a 224p, 240p signal?
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:17 pm 


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Location: Germany
No idea whatsoever what you're asking, sorry! Read it back, it's really crytic.

But to take a change: if you have a 240p source (e.g. a PS1 game), you cannot use this with either the SLG3000 or a an Emotia. Both machines are for 480p inputs only. You could upscale the picture first using a HDBoxPro (or similar), but it all depends on what's your goal (which display, which signal, scanlines or not...).


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:47 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 145
Fudoh wrote:
No idea whatsoever what you're asking, sorry! Read it back, it's really crytic.


Heh, sorry bout that. What I meant by "480 gets you 240" was the image processed with scanlines, thus you get the 240 display.

ok so what type of box would it take to upscan low res games for this? I know the XRGB is out of the question and I haven't known a good quality converter that outputs 31hz VGA.
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Last edited by headlesshobbs on Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:43 pm 


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Location: Germany
Check my page http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
You can use pretty much anything you like. If you "scanline" the picture anyway, quality of the upscaling beforehand it not THIS important anymore. A cheap one like the HDBoxPro should do fine. A Faroudja upscaler with the SLG3000 should rock!


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:14 am 


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Joined: 31 Dec 2009
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Location: East Coast, US
This looks awesome. A must buy. I'd kill for a slight aperture grill.


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:13 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 145
Ok in prepreation for this, I'm trying to compile a couple things that can be used for hooking up, but I'll probably need help adding a few.

Here's my short list.

DC VGA Box
Innovation VGA adapter (snes/n64/gamecube/playstation/xbox)
HDBoxPro
PC (obviously)

I'm not sure about HDBoxPro as far as accuracy goes since I've seen lines in text where I'm certain they shouldn't be. For accuracy, I'd have to find out what other component to vga converter does the job correctly. Also needing to know if this generator accepts only vga signals or will it support RGB (clearly should be included) or component (would be preferred for 480p accuracy).
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:17 pm 


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Location: Germany
The SLG3000 is VGA in/out only.

The HDBoxPro is usually fine as long as set the motion setting to the proper level. That's neccessary for processing 240p material. No idea about the Innovation VGA adapter. Do you have a link ??


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:26 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 145
http://www.raren64games.com/2010/03/gam ... x-adapter/

I believe it's mainly the s-video signal that's been up-converted for 31hz output. I list this because I'm not sure it's possible to mod it for RGB. They have 3 versions of it depending on what systems you want to use, but I'll note that some snes games tend to suffer from a "white-out" effect.

I did notice when I set motion level for 1, the displayed image comes through on every even line, but every odd comes with a delayed frame which I'm hoping the slg3000 will block out and maintain the original quality. If the HDBoxPro is off any, then the scanlines will certainly be misplaced. If that happens, I'm going to give the distributer one hell of an email asking for them to update.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:05 pm 


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Joined: 22 Oct 2010
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Location: GERMANY
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@headlesshobbs
the displayed image comes through on every even line, but every odd comes with a delayed frame
Must be real garbage on the screen :evil:

The latest version offers the possibility to choose between the even and the odd lines, being switched off.
This will work only at 480 x 600, ~31KHz / ~60Hz, neg. sync. Setup via dip- switches.
Thats just a "waste-product" from my development, because the ratio from horizontal to vertical frequency is not a whole counter, but any broken number. The scanlines seems to walk or travel, and when I used the vert. sync to trigger with every frame, too, this bad effect was gone. This is implemented now, switchable, and may be usefull to select calculated the even and the odd lines.

The real background for this feature is the fact, that different, higher solutions have different polarity of the sync-pulse. Former the 600 x 800 has pos. sync, and the simply lineswitch would not work triggered with pos. vert. sync.
The simply solution was here, to design it switchable. So the idea was born, just to install two switches to set the hor. clock timing.

This coming week Jochen will order the PCBs, and we would be lucky to present the device in a few weeks.

By that I am working on a simply solution to produce a faked aperture grill on a VGA-monitor.
I cannot promise, that I will be sucessfull in this. The first experiments shows very coarse rough pictures.
I have to "fight" with delay-times in the range of a few dozend nanoseconds. Perhaps I will be lucky in this, dont know.
If so, than I will try to develop a combinated device.................... :mrgreen:

Its a mess, I m an old passionated analog technician, and just a year ago the "crisis" kicked me out of job!
Former I have repaired x-thousand TV-sets etc, al least I worked in the industrial electronic service for frequency converters.
Now I try to get busy in this way..............its a great funfactor, you can believe that, shurely
With best regards from Germany
Winfried
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:17 pm 


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Joined: 22 Oct 2010
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Look here
It works like a line separator....
http://www.arcadezentrum.com/forum/show ... post101146
Im not able to present pics here, dont know, why
Winfried
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:49 pm 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 145
winni wrote:
Its a mess, I m an old passionated analog technician, and just a year ago the "crisis" kicked me out of job!
Former I have repaired x-thousand TV-sets etc, al least I worked in the industrial electronic service for frequency converters.
Now I try to get busy in this way..............its a great funfactor, you can believe that, shurely
With best regards from Germany
Winfried


I'm terribly sorry to hear you had to go through this. I'm in a similar situation where I'm with a group of other people under a temp agency and we're lucky to even get any hours if there's demand for work. I do like the fact that you got a field where you can turn your skill into a bit of a profitable income for yourself knowing there's an area of interest for it.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:56 am 


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Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Posts: 39
Some great work here!

I'll probably buy one when they are ready.
Decent 15Khz crt screens are becomming harder to find.
My use would be in combination with an upscale converter for jamma games.
But it is also usable for emulation thoug most emulators have software built in for this.

I'm curious what the people here going to use it for as i'm guessing most buyers would combine it with an upscale converter.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:46 am 



Joined: 25 Sep 2010
Posts: 11
Location: germany
legztec wrote:
I'm curious what the people here going to use it for as i'm guessing most buyers would combine it with an upscale converter.

neo geo mvs. i was thinking about getting an xrgb-3, but i don't really want to spend that kind of money, atm.

@ Winni:
i followed this project from the day mac:mame asked if it could be done and i'm impressed how much you achieved in just a few weeks. i too will be out of a job soon, but the slg3000 is on my list of "must haves". even if that means that the refrigerator will have to be empty for a few weeks. :D


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:31 pm 


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legztec wrote:
I'm curious what the people here going to use it for as i'm guessing most buyers would combine it with an upscale converter.


I'll be using it with an RGB2VGA converter pcb, for some PS2 games. Will probably just use the lcd+ergotron.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:06 pm 


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legztec wrote:
I'm curious what the people here going to use it for as i'm guessing most buyers would combine it with an upscale converter.

Hooked on a HoloII :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:47 am 



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 900
Location: Leeds
Thumbs up - I never was bothered for an xrgb, but for 50ish euro and simple setup it sounds like a deal!

Good luck developing it!


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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:56 pm 


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Hey,

I`m Jochen from the AZ and one of the developers of the SLG. Here`re some info about the project status. PCB Layout is done and ordered. We took the hints from fudoh into account and the final design features :

- two female VGA connectors
- Molex connector for power supply
- redundant foot print for power supply via 5mm screw terminals
- redundant port for power supply
- reverse voltage protection
- LED status for on and of
- DIP Switches for 480p and 600p
- continous configuration of RGB level
- On and off switch via 5mm screw terminals

We`re thinking of a case for this device. But priority is to release the PCB before xmas.

Edit : ah the PCB will be in black...
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:41 pm 


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bencao74 wrote:
Hey,

I`m Jochen from the AZ and one of the developers of the SLG. Here`re some info about the project status. PCB Layout is done and ordered. We took the hints from fudoh into account and the final design features :

- two female VGA connectors
- Molex connector for power supply
- redundant foot print for power supply via 5mm screw terminals
- redundant port for power supply
- reverse voltage protection
- LED status for on and of
- DIP Switches for 480p and 600p
- continous configuration of RGB level
- On and off switch via 5mm screw terminals

We`re thinking of a case for this device. But priority is to release the PCB before xmas.

Edit : ah the PCB will be in black...


This sounds sweet. Could you explain what "redundant" means? Also, will I be able to power the PCB with a USB source? It would be very helpful if the latter could be supplied with the PCB as it is shipped out, as this will work whatever region the user live in.
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:50 pm 


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redundant means I`ve foreseen different part footprints on the PCB for the same feature. So power can be supplied either via

- Molex
- Screw terminals
- Power ocnnector

Thus we can assemble and offer the PCB in different ways.

About USB : Yes and No : USB is possible via screw terminals (cut a USB Cable and wire 5V and GND to the screw terminals). Tough It`s not really recommended ;) I´ve not put a USB connector footprint to the PCB. But perhaps it`s still possible and the production process hasn't started yet. I would prefer then USB B Port like on my other devices

only an example

Image
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:53 pm 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 6711
Location: Bedford, UK
In that screenshot a scanline + a data line is 75/25.

I am wondering how this device is used. what would I use it for?
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:57 pm 


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hmm, forget the USB B Port, it`s to big. I can't promise that I add a USB Port just for power supply. Nearly no room left ;)
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 Post subject: Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:07 pm 


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bencao74 wrote:
hmm, forget the USB B Port, it`s to big. I can't promise that I add a USB Port just for power supply. Nearly no room left ;)


Thanks a lot for considering it. :) But would you advice against hacking an USB cable to power it? What risks would be involved in doing so?
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