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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:06 am 


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Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 1
Location: Toledo, OH
axlblazeadam wrote:
FBX wrote:
Anyway, small package update:

Thanks so much for still updating the profiles, much appreciated!


Thanks too FBX, your work is very appreciated. These were a life saver when I got my Framemeister, and they just keep getting better!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:48 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 123
Everblue wrote:
I have a "weird" question(s), hopefully this is ok to ask here.

I have a Wii (PAL) console on the way which I would like to use to play both Wii and Gamecube games (original - PAL). The Wii will be connected to the TV via a component cable.

1. From what I understand most Gamecube PAL games are not able to output to 480p, so if I try to play GC games with the above setup, what will happen? No picture? Game will be displayed at 240p? System forces games to run at 480p anyway? (I doubt).

2. Are there any advantages of passing the above setup through a Framemeister before going into the TV via HDMI?

Thank you :)


Gamecube PAL games missing 480p individually disabled it. Monotonous as that sounds.
You'll almost always get 480i and/or 576i. Wii doesn't change that. (240p is very rare for GC. The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition released in every major region, but the USA and JPN versions have 480p to make up for it). Mega Man X Collection was NTSC-U only.)

Options like Action Replay codes and homebrew, some modchips, etc can also force video modes to various results.

I believe the expensive component cable itself works fine on a PAL GC.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:37 pm 


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Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 1811
Location: Canada
The GameCube 240p mode is wierd, it's the same horizontal resolution as 480i/480p. At one point, I was doing splash screens for gbiloader, and that was making everything look silly.

The component cables work on PAL consoles (they do have the digital port), but you've also got a cheaper option if you're outputting to a TV that supports component and not RGB (like an NTSC TV), the HD Retrovision component cables work with the PAL gamecube, albeit at 240p and 480i.

You should be able to use Swiss to force different resolutions on GameCube discs, although I haven't tried using it to force 480p (since I don't have the expensive component cables) and I haven't tried using it to force resolutions on the Wii.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:21 am 



Joined: 08 Jul 2017
Posts: 1
Hi guys! First of all, thanks for all the information, the profiles, and everything regarding the mini. I've already ordered mine, it will come next week i think. I only have a quite a dumb question, but is it possible the use FirebranXs profiles with a modified PAL consoles running NTSC games? Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:41 pm 



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 40
I tried searching but couldn't find anyone with my issue. I'm trying to play Panzer Dragoon Saga on my Saturn connected via SCART/RGB to the Mini. I keep running into sync/signal drop outs when transitioning to battle or exiting caverns. Any ideas on what steps I could try to resolve? Thanks Guys!

**Update*** It only seems to happen with routing through my Keene SCART Switch when a full white screen is displayed. Might be time to look into a new switching option.


Last edited by chadti99 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:18 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 123
chadti99 wrote:
I tried searching but couldn't find anyone with my issue. I'm trying to play Panzer Dragoon Saga on my Saturn connected via SCART/RGB to the Mini. I keep running into sync/signal drop outs when transitioning to battle or exiting caverns. Any ideas on what steps I could try to resolve? Thanks Guys!


I'm not too familiar with that game but Framemeister has a noticeable delay when switching video modes. The aforementioned Mega Man X Collection at times changes between 240p or 480i. I've also heard of issues in N64 Resident Evil 2 among others.

baka wrote:
Hi guys! First of all, thanks for all the information, the profiles, and everything regarding the mini. I've already ordered mine, it will come next week i think. I only have a quite a dumb question, but is it possible the use FirebranXs profiles with a modified PAL consoles running NTSC games? Thank you!


It might take adjustment. On some consoles, the original crystal oscillator isn't intended to switch NTSC/PAL and the video sync timing will be slightly different (unless the mod has that covered).


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:16 am 



Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Posts: 84
So for reals. Would adding an OSSC between the N64 and Framemeister fix my 240p/480i switching issue?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:12 am 


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No.
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https://www.evolvehq.com/players/buckoa51
OSSC Forums - http://www.videogameperfection.com/forums
Please check the XRGB Wiki before posting about the OSSC, XRGB Mini or XRGB3 - http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Main_Page


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:44 am 



Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 322
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
theclaw wrote:
I've also heard of issues in N64 Resident Evil 2 among others.

Very true but changing the expansion pak to a jumper pak locks the game to 240p.

Regarding Panzer Dragoon Saga, isn't it just the title screen that's in 480i while main game is in 240p? Much like Radiant Silvergun.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:07 pm 



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 40
nissling wrote:
theclaw wrote:
I've also heard of issues in N64 Resident Evil 2 among others.

Very true but changing the expansion pak to a jumper pak locks the game to 240p.

Regarding Panzer Dragoon Saga, isn't it just the title screen that's in 480i while main game is in 240p? Much like Radiant Silvergun.


Thanks for the response, it seems to be happening whenever a fully white screen is displayed and not just resolution changes. Maybe I need to try different sync settings?

**Update*** It only seems to happen with routing through my Keene SCART Switch. Might be time to look into a new switching option.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:19 pm 


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Posts: 26
Grimakis wrote:
So for reals. Would adding an OSSC between the N64 and Framemeister fix my 240p/480i switching issue?


If you're willing to spend the money, installing an UltraHDMI kit in your N64 is really the best solution as there's essentially no delay when switching between 240p/480i, and the image quality is bit-perfect.
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Hi-Def NES firmware with RGBSource Color Palettes

New NESRGB Firmware Featuring RGBSource Color Palettes

NES "Hybrid" Palette - Striking a Balance Between Composite and RGB

Creating an "accurate" NES NTSC Color Palette


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:56 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 123
chadti99 wrote:
Thanks for the response, it seems to be happening whenever a fully white screen is displayed and not just resolution changes. Maybe I need to try different sync settings?

**Update*** It only seems to happen with routing through my Keene SCART Switch. Might be time to look into a new switching option.


Large white areas can cause problems in some setups too. Do you have trouble on a Genesis with Sonic 3 Ice Cap Zone?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:31 am 


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Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 21
Location: United Kingdom
I have recently noticed some weird picture noise when using my Omega CMVS Neo Geo with my Framemeister. Basically I have had both since 2014 and never had any issues the picture via RGB (with sync cleaner), it was always really good. There was some noise and a loud audio buzz, but with the brightness set correctly the picture noise was no longer visible. I have not used the Omega in a while, basically I had to order a new PSU and upgraded the Unibios, meanwhile I upgrade the XRGB Mini FW to v2.03a from v2.00a.

Now it seems the image noise is amplified and white flicker dots (like a snow storm) are present across the image which moves left to right really fast predominantly on the right side of the image, with the brightness set at the correct level you can still faintly see these on the image, although with scanlines and sat from a distance they are not really noticeable in gameplay, only more visible on solid blacks.

I have tested the Omega CMVS using Composite and S-video on my Framemeister and do not have the issue, only with RGB. I have an older LCD Sony Bravia (2008) that has its own RGB SCART, Composite and S-Video inputs and I get none of this amplified white dot noise on either of these inputs. So it seems for some reason I only get this on RGB on my Framemeister. The PSU is brand-new, I replaced it due to voltage loss on the old one, I cannot see how a new unibios chip could also effect it.

I have factory reset the Framemesiter and the problem seems to go away when set to 480p, upping to 1080p it also seemed good. But when I set to 720p and started to adjust the V-height settings to get the image correct aligned the noise started to come back. Could this be an issue with the firmware, I prefer the better colour reproduction in FW2.03a, less nuking of greens etc but am tempted to go back to FW2.00a to test.

Has anyone else had issues with FW2.03a like this? My SNES and Mega Drive seem ok but my Neo is my favourite and its driving me mad.

Update: I have downgraded to FW2.00a and the issue is still there but less pronounced. I might have a look at getting another SCART cable, one with better shielding as the one supplied with the Omega is really thin.

Edit: I just plugged by PS One in tonight for some 32-bit action and saw the same wavy white dots just like on my Neo Geo, so this rules out the consoles and it looks like its something else, perhaps my XRGB mini. Now that I think about it I only noticed this issues after I moved the TV to another room and am using a different HDMI cable to connect the Framemeister to my TV. I'll have to dig out the other cable I used and retest.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:43 am 



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 1
I got my Framemeister about two weeks ago and I have spent hours trying to wrap my head around the different settings. Looking at FBXs profiles have been really helpful but since I am a PAL user I can't use them straight away.

I am trying to set up a 720p PAL SNES profile. The signal is 720x288p.

Am I right in assuming that the V_WIDTH stretches the picture exactly two lines?

My thinking was that I could leave zoom settings at 100 and just set the V_WIDTH to 56 (adding 24 to the default 32) to crop off the extra 48 lines in the PAL compared to NTSC. And that the remaining 240 rows would fill the 720p at a nice 3x scale. The resulting picture size looked like it could be correct at first, but then I tried enabling scan lines and it looked like utter shit. So I figure it must be wrong.


Actually, the best looking settings I have tried so far are the ones suggested here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=58422
V_WIDTH: 20
SCREEN_SET: LB

But I don't understand why that works. It fills the entire screen vertically which means it can't be a perfect integer scale. Still the scan lines look perfectly spaced.

I have my tv set to 1:1 pixel ratio.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:33 am 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1275
Location: DFW area, Texas
Currently working on Jaguar and 2600 profiles.

The Jaguar is quite the interesting beast concerning resolution modes. Effectively all games use 240p vertical, but differ on how many vertical lines they will use (the rest being left black). Horizontal resolution varies greatly depending on the mode assigned by the game. Thankfully this is not an issue with the Framemeister as vertical is the key to getting a good picture. However, take a look at my pixel analysis of Tempest 2000:

1x scale = 345x227

Linearity: Expects square pixels!

All geometry for Tempest 2000 from the star field pattern to the vector webs themselves were designed based on square pixel aspect ratio. It becomes quite apparent everything is squished inward too skinny when you try to correct for 4:3 on Tempest 2000. The good news obviously about this is that since we play on HDTVs that are widescreen, Tempest 2000 will take up a lot more screen territory on it with the profile I am designing (which looks fantastic by the way). However, this may not be ideal for other Jaguar games that might take into account CRT AR. I'm just going to suggest that people merely change the ZOOM_WIDTH back to around 48-50 (it's set to 36 for square pixels) and re-save a new profile with that setting if they want CRT AR.

Okay so still a lot of work I have to do on these Jag profiles to get 720-3x, 1080-4x, and 1080-5x, but I will be working on them all day.

-FBX
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Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:59 am 


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Joined: 15 Jul 2016
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Hi all,

I think my XRGB Mini is going faulty, any advice or is there a setting I need to flick to fix this issues. A few weeks ago I noticed this wavy pattern on the screen, it's mainly on the right hand side. At first I thought it was a problem with my Neo Geo but I have seen it on all consoles now. I only get this using RGB and none of the other inputs. As you can see from the video it is really annoying, its more noticeable on my Neo Geo and PS1 but is still there on my SNES only less noticeable. Any ideas guys? I have swapped HDMI cables, swapped inputs on my TV and downgraded the FW to 2.00a.

https://youtu.be/Mk4SLyTQ4mQ


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:08 pm 


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I would at least try another PSU. Reminds me of analogue interference.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:39 pm 


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Joined: 15 Jul 2016
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Fudoh wrote:
I would at least try another PSU. Reminds me of analogue interference.


Thanks for the tip, I am also tempted to put the whole setup back into my other room in case power from the wall is causing issue. I only noticed this issues when I moved my TV and Retro gaming kit to another room, coincidence? I take this noise is not normal and that I have just not noticed it for 2.5 years?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:49 am 



Joined: 22 Apr 2015
Posts: 81
That's pretty much the exact same artefacts I got when using a chinese PSU with my N64.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:23 pm 


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Joined: 25 Sep 2016
Posts: 46
Ok, just got a new TV recently and started using the 1080p profiles from FBX. I have noticed that the 480i PS2 profiles don't fill the screen vertically. Is this normal, or does the FM not fill the vertical portion of the screen in 1080p for 480i and 480p content? Or is this the fault of my TV?


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:39 pm 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1275
Location: DFW area, Texas
MetalMilitia wrote:
Ok, just got a new TV recently and started using the 1080p profiles from FBX. I have noticed that the 480i PS2 profiles don't fill the screen vertically. Is this normal, or does the FM not fill the vertical portion of the screen in 1080p for 480i and 480p content? Or is this the fault of my TV?


The vast majority of the profiles I did are based on integer scaling, so 480 x 2 is going to be 960, leaving black borders on the top and bottom of the screen. The reason I do this is so that the scanline feature works properly with uniform scanlines, and also ensures the pixels are evenly shaped on the vertical axis. However with the PS2, I did that profile a long time ago, and I seem to remember that many PS2 games were 'shifted' randomly up or down the screen depending on who designed it. As such, it would have been a very bad idea to fill the screen vertically anyway because one game would be clipped on the bottom, another clipped on the top, and another may look perfectly centered.

-FBX
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


Last edited by FBX on Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:48 pm 


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That certainly makes sense. I've seen that with different PS2 games as well. Thanks for the response!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:41 pm 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
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Location: DFW area, Texas
Big package update!

Code:
Package version date: July 18th, 2017

Added the following new profiles:


720p:

AT26720    --  NTSC Atari 2600 with RGB mod, vertical scaled to 4x.

ATET720    --  NTSC "E.T." for the Atari 2600 with RGB mod, vertical scaled to 5x (fills the screen vertically).

JAG720     --  NTSC Atari Jaguar 3x vertical scaled.

JAGT720    --  NTSC "Tempest 2000" for the Atari Jaguar (3x scaled square pixels).

SGB720     --  NTSC Super Game Boy adapter 5x scaled for square pixels (fills the screen vertically).


1080p:

00DFAULT   --  Safe template profile for resetting all inputs to defaults for 1080p.


45AT26X5   --  NTSC Atari 2600 with RGB mod, vertical scaled to 5x.

46ATETX6   --  NTSC "E.T." for the Atari 2600 with RGB mod, vertical scaled to 6x (fills the screen vertically).


50JAG4X    --  NTSC Atari Jaguar 4x vertical scaled.

51JAG5X    --  NTSC Atari Jaguar 5x vertical scaled.

52JAGT4X   --  NTSC "Tempest 2000" for the Atari Jaguar (4x scaled square pixels).

53JAGT5X   --  NTSC "Tempest 2000" for the Atari Jaguar (5x scaled aquare pixels).


Also did some tweaking to a few of the 16-bit console profiles to fine-tune aspect ratios, and corrected some wrong settings on alternate inputs for "PROGEN" and a couple of the GBI profiles. Future updates will likely be more housekeeping work on the profiles, with my new method for adjusting aspect correction using direct capture screenshots instead of physically measuring my TV screen.


Here's the direct link:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/framemeisterprofiles-2017-07-18.zip


-FBX
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:51 pm 


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First, thank you for all your work on the profiles Firebrandx, it's made setting up my consoles so much easier.

I got an ASUS VN279QL for use with my Framemeister and while testing the settings I found that setting deep color to auto seemed to generally clear up some noise in the picture.

So, I was wondering if there is a way to edit the profile on a computer so I don't have to change and save every profile on the Framemeister itself.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:25 am 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
zelkian wrote:
First, thank you for all your work on the profiles Firebrandx, it's made setting up my consoles so much easier.

I got an ASUS VN279QL for use with my Framemeister and while testing the settings I found that setting deep color to auto seemed to generally clear up some noise in the picture.

So, I was wondering if there is a way to edit the profile on a computer so I don't have to change and save every profile on the Framemeister itself.


Deep Color had to be turned off because it's incompatible with a lot of HDMI switchers and some displays. All it does is output in 12-bit color, which is useless since no console to date uses 12-bit color.
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Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:29 am 


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zelkian said enabling it changed his image quality, could the framester be re-processing the RGB data and converting it to Deep Color?

from what i've read deep color supports 30/36/48/64-bit color for the three RGB colors and it can help alleviate color banding issues on some content with the help of re-processing (depends on the implementation I guess).


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:04 am 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
Blair wrote:
zelkian said enabling it changed his image quality, could the framester be re-processing the RGB data and converting it to Deep Color?

from what i've read deep color supports 30/36/48/64-bit color for the three RGB colors and it can help alleviate color banding issues on some content with the help of re-processing (depends on the implementation I guess).


Color banding isn't an issue with video game consoles (in so far as what we want to see from our retro games). You WANT to see the original unmolested pixels as much as possible. Color banding is more in relation to photographs and CGI in terms of shading transition. In terms of retro video game consoles, as I said, you want to see those color bands, and of course 12-bit output from the Framemeister doesn't even attempt to correct this anyway.
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Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:24 am 


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Here's a simple breakdown of the difference between retro consoles and modern color banding issues:

Image

The deep color mode on the Framemeister corrects NEITHER of these images (unless somebody can prove otherwise), and you wouldn't want it to at least in the case of the SNES image.

-FBX
_________________
Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:55 am 


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Quote:
The deep color mode on the Framemeister corrects NEITHER of these images (unless somebody can prove otherwise), and you wouldn't want it to at least in the case of the SNES image.

try a high-color 480i source (like PS2) with the scaling set to video. Here you might see some differences. The Marvell is probably processing in 10bit anyway, one time passing the full color resolution to the output, one time dithering down to 8bit fist.

For low retro sources it's definitely not neccessary of course.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:00 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
The deep color mode on the Framemeister corrects NEITHER of these images (unless somebody can prove otherwise), and you wouldn't want it to at least in the case of the SNES image.

try a high-color 480i source (like PS2) with the scaling set to video. Here you might see some differences. The Marvell is probably processing in 10bit anyway, one time passing the full color resolution to the output, one time dithering down to 8bit fist.



Yeah most of my friends that I met via the Framemeister have already switched to OSSC due to the poor color management. I've ordered one too, but it will take another 2 months before it ships.

I will have a look at the PS2 and see if I can find a difference, although again, it's useless for 16-bit and below consoles. On top of this, I got several complaints when I defaulted the profiles to deep color mode because it wouldn't work on various hardware setups that used HDMI splitters/switchers (and even some displays). I eventually got enough complaints coming in to conclude that any sort of benefit (if any) was being far outweighed by the lack of compatibility.
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Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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