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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:26 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 140
FBX wrote:
4k TV users (always use 720p output if you can help it when hooking the Framemeister up to a 4k set).


Cheers!

Why's that? 1080p upscaling shouldn't be an issue or am I missing something Framemeister-specific?
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:10 am 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
Shuco13 wrote:
FBX wrote:
4k TV users (always use 720p output if you can help it when hooking the Framemeister up to a 4k set).


Cheers!

Why's that? 1080p upscaling shouldn't be an issue or am I missing something Framemeister-specific?


Because 720 integer scales on a 4k TV (3 x 720 = 2160), while 1080 does not. If you want the sharpest possible picture, use 720.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:54 am 


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Location: Germany
Quote:
Because 720 integer scales on a 4k TV (3 x 720 = 2160), while 1080 does not. If you want the sharpest possible picture, use 720.

2x1080 = 2160. Integer as well, isn't it ? There are other advantages of course, like the better scanline to non-scanline ratio of 1:2.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:49 pm 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Because 720 integer scales on a 4k TV (3 x 720 = 2160), while 1080 does not. If you want the sharpest possible picture, use 720.

2x1080 = 2160. Integer as well, isn't it ? There are other advantages of course, like the better scanline to non-scanline ratio of 1:2.


LOL total brain fart on my part. I didn't even think of that. Just remember reading posts mentioning 720 was better than 1080 on 4ks.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:55 pm 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
Now I remember what it was:

The 224/240 res consoles can be scaled integer 9x on 4k tvs with the Framemeister set at 720 (with 240 perfectly fitting the screen). At 1080, you'd only get 8x from the original 4x scale when doubled on a 4k tv. You'd have to go 5x in 1080, but that of course cuts graphics from the screen.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:29 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 85
Unless you are using a display that is resizing with nearest neighbour it does not matter if it can be integer scaled or not. Its more important to output a higher resolution to the display.

Let do test in practice. Here are 2 upscaled images to 2160p. One is upscaled from 720p (3x) and the other from 960p(2.25x). Please post which one is better and which you think is 720p.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:55 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 1780
The one to the left looks sharper so I'm guessing it's 960p.

I know you didn't ask me, I just wanted to try seeing if I could spot the difference. I know there are people here who care about that small image quality differences and it just confuses me as I'm struggling to tell and would never notice while actually being engrossed in a game.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:57 pm 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
paulb_nl wrote:
Unless you are using a display that is resizing with nearest neighbour it does not matter if it can be integer scaled or not. Its more important to output a higher resolution to the display.




Perfectly understandable, but the point is you get 9x versus 8x, and 240p fits the screen perfectly at 9x. Also, from at least one person I heard with a 4k TV, 720 doesn't look any more blurry than 1080 on their set, though obviously it would depend on the make & model. I've emailed some friends to ask for their experiences on this. Would be interesting to find out if nearest neighbor scaling is done by default or is at least an option in the menu for 4k sets.

Edit: Doing some research online, I did find at least with some models of Panasonic TV sets, there are options in the menu to turn off scaling enhancements and just use integer scaling. I'm continuing to research this to find out more information.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:49 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 85
ZellSF wrote:
The one to the left looks sharper so I'm guessing it's 960p.

I know you didn't ask me, I just wanted to try seeing if I could spot the difference. I know there are people here who care about that small image quality differences and it just confuses me as I'm struggling to tell and would never notice while actually being engrossed in a game.


Actually it was meant for people in general. It seems a lot of people think that 720p will look better on 4K TVs than on 1080p TVs because it can be integer scaled but I think its because the scaler has more pixels to work with. You are correct that the left one was 960p so as you saw it looks better and was non-integer scaled .


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:46 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 140
FBX wrote:
Also, from at least one person I heard with a 4k TV, 720 doesn't look any more blurry than 1080 on their set, though obviously it would depend on the make & model.

Because 720 integer scales to 2160, whereas it doesn't fit 1080 as much (1.5x).
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:11 am 



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 21
Shuco13 wrote:
FBX wrote:
Also, from at least one person I heard with a 4k TV, 720 doesn't look any more blurry than 1080 on their set, though obviously it would depend on the make & model.

Because 720 integer scales to 2160, whereas it doesn't fit 1080 as much (1.5x).

720 -> 1080 is 1.5x
1080 -> 2160 is 2x


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:00 pm 


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Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 4
Location: Manila, Philippines
CaveManGamer wrote:

Could be a number of issues that you're going to have to experiment with. When you plug your famicom directly to your tv, do you experience this issue? I doubt the "jumpy" colours are related to the adapter, but it's also not out of the question. I would first try hooking it up directly to you HDTV- it's going to look like crap but at least you can rule out a faulty system. If it happening when it's connected directly to the HDTV then you know it's not your XRGB. Question - have you tried running it in Game1 mode?


Yes, it's on Game Mode now, which I do as a rule when it comes to gaming to avoid any lag or added visual features.

Weird update:
So, I tried using another console (TG-16) connected to the Framemeister (via a selector), and it started creating the same, and often a new weird glitch.

So I decided to just connect the TG-16 DIRECTLY to the XRGB's composite input and it still pops up.

See here: https://youtu.be/LiP7CdnfDoE

Description: This is my second video trying to figure out where the problem lies... (my first video shows a similar color glitch from my Sharp Twin Famicom... *see it listed in my other uploads)

You see the weird color wipe occur at the 00:05 second mark. I've isolated the problem enough (so far, at least) to be able say that these weird color glitches seem to occur with all my systems that are connected via composite. I am not using a switch or a selector, and the system is connected DIRECTLY to the XRGB, and the XRGB DIRECTLY to the Samsung.

From the looks of it, could it still be a voltage thingy? It couldn't be faulty caps within ALL my composite systems right? Could it be the XRGB, or a setting, and/or how it may be handling composite signals. Anyon here have experience with Samsung HDTVs, in case it could be how the XRGB interacts with the UA55KS7000?

What does it look like to you guys? Any help would be appreciated.

My setup:
Turbografx-16 (composite modded) - connected via composite - XRGB Framemeister - connected via HDMI - SAMSUNG UA55KS7000 HDTV
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:13 am 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 85
That is called tearing and it looks like your TV can't handle the refresh rate of your old consoles. Try to set Sync mode to off so the Framemeister will output a standard refresh rate.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:30 pm 


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Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 4
Location: Manila, Philippines
paulb_nl wrote:
That is called tearing and it looks like your TV can't handle the refresh rate of your old consoles. Try to set Sync mode to off so the Framemeister will output a standard refresh rate.


OMG! Two things:

1. It feels so good to finally hear from someone who knows EXACTLY (a) what the problem is called, & (b) knows EXACTLY what is causing it!

2. I literally did what you suggested just that a few seconds ago, and I can confirm that the instance of tearing disappeared. Hearing your suggestion now only validates my accidental solution.

*This may or may not shed light: At first, I noticed a lot less tearing when (having the Aspect Ratio setting of the XRGB already set to "Auto") and then went into the TV settings and set the screen aspect ratio to 4:3, to sorta match the aspect ratio coming from the XRGB & from my TurboGrafx-16. Once that was set, I started noticing an improvement. That's when I thought of the sync of the TV trying to catch up with framerate of old system. So I went in and turned off Sync Mode. This instantly fixed the problem and now ALL my composite consoles work just fine without any instance of tearing. thanks so much for your help everyone!
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:34 am 


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Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 1096
Location: DFW area, Texas
farankoshan wrote:
paulb_nl wrote:
That is called tearing and it looks like your TV can't handle the refresh rate of your old consoles. Try to set Sync mode to off so the Framemeister will output a standard refresh rate.


OMG! Two things:

1. It feels so good to finally hear from someone who knows EXACTLY (a) what the problem is called, & (b) knows EXACTLY what is causing it!

2. I literally did what you suggested just that a few seconds ago, and I can confirm that the instance of tearing disappeared. Hearing your suggestion now only validates my accidental solution.

*This may or may not shed light: At first, I noticed a lot less tearing when (having the Aspect Ratio setting of the XRGB already set to "Auto") and then went into the TV settings and set the screen aspect ratio to 4:3, to sorta match the aspect ratio coming from the XRGB & from my TurboGrafx-16. Once that was set, I started noticing an improvement. That's when I thought of the sync of the TV trying to catch up with framerate of old system. So I went in and turned off Sync Mode. This instantly fixed the problem and now ALL my composite consoles work just fine without any instance of tearing. thanks so much for your help everyone!


You'll now get frame skips like emulators though. Once you see the frame skip, you cannot unsee it. :-P
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