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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:26 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 141
FBX wrote:
4k TV users (always use 720p output if you can help it when hooking the Framemeister up to a 4k set).


Cheers!

Why's that? 1080p upscaling shouldn't be an issue or am I missing something Framemeister-specific?
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:10 am 


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Shuco13 wrote:
FBX wrote:
4k TV users (always use 720p output if you can help it when hooking the Framemeister up to a 4k set).


Cheers!

Why's that? 1080p upscaling shouldn't be an issue or am I missing something Framemeister-specific?


Because 720 integer scales on a 4k TV (3 x 720 = 2160), while 1080 does not. If you want the sharpest possible picture, use 720.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:54 am 


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Quote:
Because 720 integer scales on a 4k TV (3 x 720 = 2160), while 1080 does not. If you want the sharpest possible picture, use 720.

2x1080 = 2160. Integer as well, isn't it ? There are other advantages of course, like the better scanline to non-scanline ratio of 1:2.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:49 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Because 720 integer scales on a 4k TV (3 x 720 = 2160), while 1080 does not. If you want the sharpest possible picture, use 720.

2x1080 = 2160. Integer as well, isn't it ? There are other advantages of course, like the better scanline to non-scanline ratio of 1:2.


LOL total brain fart on my part. I didn't even think of that. Just remember reading posts mentioning 720 was better than 1080 on 4ks.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:55 pm 


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Now I remember what it was:

The 224/240 res consoles can be scaled integer 9x on 4k tvs with the Framemeister set at 720 (with 240 perfectly fitting the screen). At 1080, you'd only get 8x from the original 4x scale when doubled on a 4k tv. You'd have to go 5x in 1080, but that of course cuts graphics from the screen.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:29 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 111
Unless you are using a display that is resizing with nearest neighbour it does not matter if it can be integer scaled or not. Its more important to output a higher resolution to the display.

Let do test in practice. Here are 2 upscaled images to 2160p. One is upscaled from 720p (3x) and the other from 960p(2.25x). Please post which one is better and which you think is 720p.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:55 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 1959
The one to the left looks sharper so I'm guessing it's 960p.

I know you didn't ask me, I just wanted to try seeing if I could spot the difference. I know there are people here who care about that small image quality differences and it just confuses me as I'm struggling to tell and would never notice while actually being engrossed in a game.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:57 pm 


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paulb_nl wrote:
Unless you are using a display that is resizing with nearest neighbour it does not matter if it can be integer scaled or not. Its more important to output a higher resolution to the display.




Perfectly understandable, but the point is you get 9x versus 8x, and 240p fits the screen perfectly at 9x. Also, from at least one person I heard with a 4k TV, 720 doesn't look any more blurry than 1080 on their set, though obviously it would depend on the make & model. I've emailed some friends to ask for their experiences on this. Would be interesting to find out if nearest neighbor scaling is done by default or is at least an option in the menu for 4k sets.

Edit: Doing some research online, I did find at least with some models of Panasonic TV sets, there are options in the menu to turn off scaling enhancements and just use integer scaling. I'm continuing to research this to find out more information.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:49 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
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ZellSF wrote:
The one to the left looks sharper so I'm guessing it's 960p.

I know you didn't ask me, I just wanted to try seeing if I could spot the difference. I know there are people here who care about that small image quality differences and it just confuses me as I'm struggling to tell and would never notice while actually being engrossed in a game.


Actually it was meant for people in general. It seems a lot of people think that 720p will look better on 4K TVs than on 1080p TVs because it can be integer scaled but I think its because the scaler has more pixels to work with. You are correct that the left one was 960p so as you saw it looks better and was non-integer scaled .


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:46 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 141
FBX wrote:
Also, from at least one person I heard with a 4k TV, 720 doesn't look any more blurry than 1080 on their set, though obviously it would depend on the make & model.

Because 720 integer scales to 2160, whereas it doesn't fit 1080 as much (1.5x).
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:11 am 



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 21
Shuco13 wrote:
FBX wrote:
Also, from at least one person I heard with a 4k TV, 720 doesn't look any more blurry than 1080 on their set, though obviously it would depend on the make & model.

Because 720 integer scales to 2160, whereas it doesn't fit 1080 as much (1.5x).

720 -> 1080 is 1.5x
1080 -> 2160 is 2x


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:00 pm 


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Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Manila, Philippines
CaveManGamer wrote:

Could be a number of issues that you're going to have to experiment with. When you plug your famicom directly to your tv, do you experience this issue? I doubt the "jumpy" colours are related to the adapter, but it's also not out of the question. I would first try hooking it up directly to you HDTV- it's going to look like crap but at least you can rule out a faulty system. If it happening when it's connected directly to the HDTV then you know it's not your XRGB. Question - have you tried running it in Game1 mode?


Yes, it's on Game Mode now, which I do as a rule when it comes to gaming to avoid any lag or added visual features.

Weird update:
So, I tried using another console (TG-16) connected to the Framemeister (via a selector), and it started creating the same, and often a new weird glitch.

So I decided to just connect the TG-16 DIRECTLY to the XRGB's composite input and it still pops up.

See here: https://youtu.be/LiP7CdnfDoE

Description: This is my second video trying to figure out where the problem lies... (my first video shows a similar color glitch from my Sharp Twin Famicom... *see it listed in my other uploads)

You see the weird color wipe occur at the 00:05 second mark. I've isolated the problem enough (so far, at least) to be able say that these weird color glitches seem to occur with all my systems that are connected via composite. I am not using a switch or a selector, and the system is connected DIRECTLY to the XRGB, and the XRGB DIRECTLY to the Samsung.

From the looks of it, could it still be a voltage thingy? It couldn't be faulty caps within ALL my composite systems right? Could it be the XRGB, or a setting, and/or how it may be handling composite signals. Anyon here have experience with Samsung HDTVs, in case it could be how the XRGB interacts with the UA55KS7000?

What does it look like to you guys? Any help would be appreciated.

My setup:
Turbografx-16 (composite modded) - connected via composite - XRGB Framemeister - connected via HDMI - SAMSUNG UA55KS7000 HDTV
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:13 am 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 111
That is called tearing and it looks like your TV can't handle the refresh rate of your old consoles. Try to set Sync mode to off so the Framemeister will output a standard refresh rate.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:30 pm 


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Location: Manila, Philippines
paulb_nl wrote:
That is called tearing and it looks like your TV can't handle the refresh rate of your old consoles. Try to set Sync mode to off so the Framemeister will output a standard refresh rate.


OMG! Two things:

1. It feels so good to finally hear from someone who knows EXACTLY (a) what the problem is called, & (b) knows EXACTLY what is causing it!

2. I literally did what you suggested just that a few seconds ago, and I can confirm that the instance of tearing disappeared. Hearing your suggestion now only validates my accidental solution.

*This may or may not shed light: At first, I noticed a lot less tearing when (having the Aspect Ratio setting of the XRGB already set to "Auto") and then went into the TV settings and set the screen aspect ratio to 4:3, to sorta match the aspect ratio coming from the XRGB & from my TurboGrafx-16. Once that was set, I started noticing an improvement. That's when I thought of the sync of the TV trying to catch up with framerate of old system. So I went in and turned off Sync Mode. This instantly fixed the problem and now ALL my composite consoles work just fine without any instance of tearing. thanks so much for your help everyone!
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:34 am 


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farankoshan wrote:
paulb_nl wrote:
That is called tearing and it looks like your TV can't handle the refresh rate of your old consoles. Try to set Sync mode to off so the Framemeister will output a standard refresh rate.


OMG! Two things:

1. It feels so good to finally hear from someone who knows EXACTLY (a) what the problem is called, & (b) knows EXACTLY what is causing it!

2. I literally did what you suggested just that a few seconds ago, and I can confirm that the instance of tearing disappeared. Hearing your suggestion now only validates my accidental solution.

*This may or may not shed light: At first, I noticed a lot less tearing when (having the Aspect Ratio setting of the XRGB already set to "Auto") and then went into the TV settings and set the screen aspect ratio to 4:3, to sorta match the aspect ratio coming from the XRGB & from my TurboGrafx-16. Once that was set, I started noticing an improvement. That's when I thought of the sync of the TV trying to catch up with framerate of old system. So I went in and turned off Sync Mode. This instantly fixed the problem and now ALL my composite consoles work just fine without any instance of tearing. thanks so much for your help everyone!


You'll now get frame skips like emulators though. Once you see the frame skip, you cannot unsee it. :-P
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:00 am 



Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 11
I noticed some noise on a few games on my RGB-modded AV Famicom that went away by turning off my TV's game mode. Then, I noticed a lot of noise on black backgrounds on a couple of Genesis games (I've had the XRGB-mini since about December, but I have been focused on Fami games for the most part) and wondered if my Genesis needed to be recapped or something. Finally, today, I noticed some noise in the space levels when playing Parodius on my Super Nintendo. I decided to poke around in the menus, even though I didn't have a real clear idea what I was doing. Well, by turning output_color to RGB (it had been on auto), the noise disappeared! I am not able to test the Genesis or the Fami with game mode on at the moment (it's very late here), but does anyone know why that setting might have been causing noise? I'm very hopeful my Genesis will look a lot better now.

My definition of "noise," in this case, is just visible movement (even when paused). On one of my Fami games (F1 Race), it was a square of wavering lines on just a portion of the title screen. Weird. Something similar was going on with Monster in my Pocket. On the Genesis, I see a smear radiating from the Ghouls and Ghosts logo, as well as general wavy lines. On Parodius, I was getting wavy lines as well as seeing the scanlines in the black areas of space, which were no longer visible when I turned output_color to RGB.

Thanks.

Edit: Result! I no longer have the noise on Genesis games, and I no longer have it on Fami games with Game mode turned on. I'd be glad to hear what output_color Auto does that was causing noise.


Last edited by Rasdock on Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:46 pm 



Joined: 13 Dec 2015
Posts: 26
FBX wrote:
You'll now get frame skips like emulators though. Once you see the frame skip, you cannot unsee it. :-P
I too get tearing from the Framemeister on my 4K TV with sync mode on. Additionally, my ps2 totally hard freezes. Both issues are solved with disabling sync. Is there another option? What do you mean by frame skips? Don't think I've seen that issue


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:23 pm 


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mario64 wrote:
FBX wrote:
You'll now get frame skips like emulators though. Once you see the frame skip, you cannot unsee it. :-P
I too get tearing from the Framemeister on my 4K TV with sync mode on. Additionally, my ps2 totally hard freezes. Both issues are solved with disabling sync. Is there another option? What do you mean by frame skips? Don't think I've seen that issue


Frame skips: After so many seconds, the current frame is duplicated, or the next frame is skipped in order to re-sync the picture. It's the same behavior in most emulators. Look for it in a side scrolling game. Usually takes anywhere from 20 seconds to a minute, but happens all the time during gameplay. The scrolling will be smooth, and then you'll see a slight jump or 'hiccup' in the scrolling. If you're getting tearing in auto sync, then I suppose it would be the lesser of the two evils as they say.

In another note on my profiles, I've gotten a complaint about getting a blank screen when loading them with "Load" instead of "Load_Select". This is because they are set to RGB input by default. People using other inputs will need to wait about 15 seconds after loading the profile, and then press the input you want on the remote. It should switch over to your preferred input and have all the settings from the profile in use. From there, you can simply re-save the profile, and it will use your preferred input by default on the next load.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:40 am 



Joined: 17 Oct 2016
Posts: 6
FBX wrote:
Frame skips: After so many seconds, the current frame is duplicated, or the next frame is skipped in order to re-sync the picture. It's the same behavior in most emulators. Look for it in a side scrolling game. Usually takes anywhere from 20 seconds to a minute, but happens all the time during gameplay. The scrolling will be smooth, and then you'll see a slight jump or 'hiccup' in the scrolling. If you're getting tearing in auto sync, then I suppose it would be the lesser of the two evils as they say.


I was getting frame skips since my sync level was set to 12. I had no idea what was causing it until now!
I've set my sync level to 3 and bye bye frame skipping

thanks a lot for that :)


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:23 am 


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lepo76 wrote:

I was getting frame skips since my sync level was set to 12. I had no idea what was causing it until now!
I've set my sync level to 3 and bye bye frame skipping

thanks a lot for that :)


I believe that's an independent issue from the frame-skipping I was describing, which happens when you turn sync from "auto" to "off". But glad something there worked out for you! :-)
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:30 am 



Joined: 26 Mar 2017
Posts: 11
Could someone take a look at my post above? I'm new and it had to be approved by a mod, but I'm afraid it'll be overlooked now that there have been subsequent replies. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:52 am 



Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 330
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Rasdock wrote:
I'd be glad to hear what output_color Auto does that was causing noise.

My guess is that if it's set to auto it may output YCbCr. Full range levels (0...255) aren't accepted with this color space and not supported by the HDMI standards. For RGB, you can get both full range and video levels (16...235). If you're using different ranges for your display than the output you'll either get very poor contrast (which will highlight shadow details and more noise will thus be visible) or you'll get a reduced range of levels. It's true that the XRGB-Mini does have some visible noise in shadows but it shouldn't be as obvious as in your example to my experience.

To make sure that all of the levels are visible, use a PLUGE test pattern. If not you can change the levels on the XRGB-Mini (called HDMI Levels, if I remember correctly) or on your display if you can find the settings for it.


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:33 am 


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Rasdock wrote:
Could someone take a look at my post above? I'm new and it had to be approved by a mod, but I'm afraid it'll be overlooked now that there have been subsequent replies. Thanks.


Hate to break it to you, but that noise you are experiencing is actually the Framemeister's A/D conversion process and is just a design flaw of it. It's the number 1 complaint about the Framemeister among many. You can sort of make it go away a bit by lowering the Framemeister's Brightness setting, but you can't really get rid of it completely.

Edit: I see you say you got rid of it by turning the color output to RGB. That's very odd because you should still be seeing noise even in that mode. Perhaps the brightness setting during that mode is simply masking it?
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:25 pm 



Joined: 26 Mar 2017
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It was some bad, weird stuff. I may try to reactivate it later and take a picture. The weirdest was the F1 Race with a perfect square of noise. I may try bumping up the gamma or brightness to see if it's still there but just hidden from view, but I also kind of want to leave it alone so it doesn't bother me!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:57 pm 


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Here's a pic I made where I replaced each level of the noise with a different grey shade to amplify it. You can see quadrants of noise happening. Did it look anything like this (only without the color replacement)?

Image
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:55 pm 



Joined: 26 Mar 2017
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Thanks, nissling. It would be interesting to find out if Auto is indeed outputting YCbCr. I wonder if others might see any improvements by setting that to RGB (or do most people already have it on RGB?). I do know that after making the change, reds are incredibly strong. The red blocks at the start of Akumajo Densetsu almost hurt my eyes! I'll have to play around with the Red in color settings (my red, green and blue are max by default).

FBX (I've got your settings on my memory card, BTW :)), I'm really not knowledgeable enough to know what I'm looking at there. The best thing I can do is take some shots later--maybe an animated gif showing what it's like with and without output_color on Auto. I'll have to point a camera at the screen since I don't have a capture card, sadly.

Thanks for the replies, both of you!


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:25 am 


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Rasdock wrote:
Thanks, nissling. It would be interesting to find out if Auto is indeed outputting YCbCr. I wonder if others might see any improvements by setting that to RGB (or do most people already have it on RGB?). I do know that after making the change, reds are incredibly strong. The red blocks at the start of Akumajo Densetsu almost hurt my eyes! I'll have to play around with the Red in color settings (my red, green and blue are max by default).


Yeah the reason I recommend Auto is because the colors are horribly imbalanced in RGB. For example on the Super NES, the green channel is overblown, and often gets crushed (shades blended together). Auto seems to skip a step in the conversion process, and the 3 color channels seems a bit more balanced, though slightly muted.
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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:04 pm 



Joined: 26 Mar 2017
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Is there a way to save the settings in Color_Set? I adjusted them down and the second I put in another game, they were all back to max.

Ahh, never mind. You have to press the ok button to make it stick. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:41 am 



Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 11
Hey guys, currently trying out a Wii ---> Component ---> Garo ---> ----> retro_console_accessories passive Euro Scart to FM Cable ---> FM setup. Getting interference lines moving up the screen. Here's a video:
https://vid.me/wZB8

So previously, using either S-video or component ---> d-terminal ---> FM, I didn't receive this problem. Is this the fault of the Garo? The power supply connected to it? This RGB cable? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X1 ... UTF8&psc=1

This is the PSU for the Garo: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018O ... UTF8&psc=1


Last edited by NYI on Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: XRGB-mini Framemeister
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:46 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 149
NYI wrote:
Hey guys, currently trying out a Wii ---> Component ---> Garo ---> ----> retro_console_accessories passive Euro Scart to FM Cable ---> FM setup. Getting interference lines moving up the screen. Here's a video:
https://vid.me/wZB8

So previously, using either S-video or component ---> mini-din ---> FM, I didn't receive this problem. Is this the fault of the Garo? The power supply connected to it? This RGB cable? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X1 ... UTF8&psc=1

This is the PSU for the Garo: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018O ... UTF8&psc=1


I'm stumped. What's the objective of that convoluted experiment?

Wii ---> Component ---> D-Terminal is way simpler.
https://solarisjapan.com/products/d-terminal-to-component-adapter-cable-female


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