OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[marqs]

Had some time today to play around with pixel repetition feature of HDMI TX chip. It is required for interlace passthrough, but it can be also used for multiplying horizontal resultion to 2x or 4x without consuming any FPGA resources. That provided an easy way to convert linedoubled 480p coming from FPGA (640x960 or 720x960 depending on sampling mode) to more compatible 1280x960/1440x960 mode at output. Everything seemed to work well based on quick testing so I'll try include these in the fw asap.

Pixel repetition also makes line4x and line5x features more realistic as FPGA does not need to generate so high pixel clock, so those shouldn't be now too far either.

[BuckoA51]

Amazing, so we can expect this and interlace passthrough soon? Awesome!

[pyrotek85]

Neat, I'm really anxious to get my hands on one of these as soon as possible.

[RocketBelt]

Great news! Just need to be able to buy one now! (am already on waiting list)

[BazookaBen]

Heck yeah man. This is going to be the go-to device for retro-gaming setups for years to come.

[NormalFish]

Great to hear. Looking forward to this device being rounded out with the upcoming updates

[Thomago]

This makes me sooooo happy

[Blair]

Had some time today to play around with pixel repetition feature of HDMI TX chip.

amazing, I was just about to ask you about that (and the pixel repetition feature of the chip) as I had remember reading about it in earlier posts of the thread.

that sounds very promising, thanks for being so active with this project!

[bobrocks95]

Does that increase visual quality to comparable with linetriple mode, or does it just improve compatibility with particularly picky displays? I guess as an example, if my Sony TV accepts 1280x960 and looks nice, should I expect similar results?

[Xyga]

Fantastic news.

[paulb_nl]

Does that increase visual quality to comparable with linetriple mode, or does it just improve compatibility with particularly picky displays? I guess as an example, if my Sony TV accepts 1280x960 and looks nice, should I expect similar results?

I assume you are talking about linedouble 480p to 960p. The compatibility will be same or worse as linetriple because there are too many blanking lines. Your Sony TV will most likely not accept it.

[BazookaBen]

Does that increase visual quality to comparable with linetriple mode

Not sure about that, but linedoubling 480p to 960p would get rid of scanlines on PC CRT's that you get at 480p and other low-resolutions. Which is a good thing, because Super Mario Galaxy doesn't need 480 black lines running across it.

[ZellSF]

So 4x/5x is a definite yes for next fw version?

Can't wait.

Not so excited for 480p linedouble. Unsure if linedouble will look all that good on the 3D graphics that 480p games usually are on a modern flat screen. Will probably look fantastic for a few select 2D 480p titles though.

[RGB32E]

Pixel repetition also makes line4x and line5x features more realistic as FPGA does not need to generate so high pixel clock, so those shouldn't be now too far either.

Excellent news! If you can implement a 1080p line5x feature with vertical position control, I think I will no longer have a use for my XRGB-mini!

[marqs]

Amazing, so we can expect this and interlace passthrough soon? Awesome!

So 4x/5x is a definite yes for next fw version?

480p linedouble and interlace passthrough will be done for next fw as listed on the wiki. Line 4x/5x still has to be tested/implemented so it's a bit further on the line.

I assume you are talking about linedouble 480p to 960p. The compatibility will be same or worse as linetriple because there are too many blanking lines. Your Sony TV will most likely not accept it.

There's no CEA mode for 1440/1280x960 so not that many TVs are expected to support it. However, if linetriple is supported I'd say there's a good chance those will be supported also. Below are the modelines for testing:

Code: Select all

ModeLine "1280x960_60.00" 100.80 1280 1312 1504 1600 960 980 984 1050 -hsync -vsync
ModeLine "1440x960_59.94" 108.00 1440 1472 1596 1716 960 978 990 1050 -hsync -vsync

[bobrocks95]

Assuming I calculated the front porch and whatnot correctly, no go on a 2014 Sony as expected. Oh well.

[Thamiel]

Quick question. Is there much of an advantage pairing an OSSC with a VP50 over a HD+? There's a HD+ going locally fairly cheaply, though I don't kind paying more for a VP50 if there's some significant improvements.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

[Blair]

Quick question. Is there much of an advantage pairing an OSSC with a VP50 over a HD+? There's a HD+ going locally fairly cheaply, though I don't kind paying more for a VP50 if there's some significant improvements.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

HD+ might not be able to use the line triple and possible future line quadruple modes of the OSSC, but I don't know for sure ( I don't think anyone's tested that theory yet). so you might be limited to the the 480p output of the OSSC, when processing 240p signals.

the advantage of the HD+ over the VP50 is that it seems to have a (mostly) ringfree scaling engine (it doesn't over-sharpen pixels while scaling) although I think 90% of ringing can be defeated with the vp50's picture controls and your own television's un-sharpening and edge enhancement settings, so your mileage may vary).

however, the VP50 has superior deinterlacing capabilities vs the HD+ (or OSSC on its own) and when the OSSC adds its interlaced pass-through option, that will make 480i content look fairly fantastic. (PlayStation 2 games with the vp50's "game mode 2" look mostly indistinguishable from real progressive output while adding very little input lag to the video chain).

also the VP50 doesn't add ringing to interlaced video signals (or if it does it's not very noticeable)

they both have their potential pros and cons.

even if you don't end up using them with the OSSC, those processors are pretty useful on their own. (as most televisions and monitors are still pretty bad at processing non-native resolutions) (if it's not too much of a financial burden, I personally would get both and use them in my video chain, but I don't know what your game/movie processing needs are)

is your main reason for buying an additional processor because you're having compatibility problems with the OSSC?

[Thamiel]

Main reason for a new processor is MVS compatibility. Right now I'm using an XRGB2 + Gefen VGA to DVI chain. Works great but the lack of zoom controls is a little frustrating.

I was also using a XRGB2 + Optoma HD3000 which I much preferred overall but the HD3000 hates the MVS.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

[Blair]

ah, personally I don't have an MVS so I can't speak to its compatibility with either of those processors ( and I'm assuming you don't have an OSSC yet?)

both units should give you pretty good aspect ratio control and nice stretch options.

I don't know how the XRGB2 functions with either DVDO processor (perhaps somebody here could shed some light on that for you) but if you're just using it as a line doubler, and then pairing it with another processor I think either one would probably work fine.

I know that XRGB3's have been used successfully with VP50s, but you have to make sure that it either has the latest firmware on it or you have a way of putting the latest firmware on it to get the lowest input lag possible. (a fantastic 6ms, well under a frame)

so I would probably lean more towards the VP50 (or 50pro if you can find it) if you were going to use your XRGB2 for a while before getting an OSSC (as it way more analog and digital input types then the HD+ and it's a bit more flexible)

both would probably be great, I just don't know how you would connect the XRGB2 into the HD+ ( but you might not care to do that anyway)

(has anyone tested Optoma HD3000 with OSSC?)

[RGB32E]

(has anyone tested Optoma HD3000 with OSSC?)

I might have. I have to upgrade the FW on my HD3000 so it can output 1080p. The menu system on the HD3000 is just broken and awful!

[Blair]

interesting, I've heard the HD3000 is really good with progressive signals (and even fairly decent at de-interlacing) it's also got digital input which is a big plus for hooking up to the OSSC.


question, I know that the OSSC can get a little hiccup be with 480i to progressive resolution switches. but how is it with progressive to progressive resolution switches? (like 640×200 to 640x480)

[karma_police]

Any update on the second batch?

[RGB0b]

The Vizio D 4K series has a lag rating of 13.5ms which is less than a frame. It lacks WCG and HDR which is why I went with the Vizio P series. I am hoping the guy from RetroRGB picks up this set(65" for $900) and tests the OSSC on it. I'm thinking there's a high chance it will support the Line Triple mode, but I'd rather get real confirmation before telling people to go buy that TV.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-4k-2016

I just bought the Vizio D40u-D1 and it consistently gets 2.5 frames of lag through the OSSC in both linetriple and linedouble modes. It actually gets about 6 frames when using any port except HDMI 5, regardless if "game low latency" is on or off. Also, the scanlines look a bit weird, so the TV probably isn't scaling the image correctly.

Good news that it supports linetriple mode, but I'm absolutely unimpressed with the 2.5 frames of lag (that's the same as my plasma). Also, there are no options to choose analog audio when using an HDMI port, there's no place in the menu for a firmware update and it's not compatible with 240p component video signals.

Does anyone have any other recommendations for a cheap flat-screen that's OSSC linetriple compatible?

[Bahn Yuki]

The Vizio D 4K series has a lag rating of 13.5ms which is less than a frame. It lacks WCG and HDR which is why I went with the Vizio P series. I am hoping the guy from RetroRGB picks up this set(65" for $900) and tests the OSSC on it. I'm thinking there's a high chance it will support the Line Triple mode, but I'd rather get real confirmation before telling people to go buy that TV.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-4k-2016

I just bought the Vizio D40u-D1 and it consistently gets 2.5 frames of lag through the OSSC in both linetriple and linedouble modes. It actually gets about 6 frames when using any port except HDMI 5, regardless if "game low latency" is on or off. Also, the scanlines look a bit weird, so the TV probably isn't scaling the image correctly.

Good news that it supports linetriple mode, but I'm absolutely unimpressed with the 2.5 frames of lag (that's the same as my plasma). Also, there are no options to choose analog audio when using an HDMI port, there's no place in the menu for a firmware update and it's not compatible with 240p component video signals.

Does anyone have any other recommendations for a cheap flat-screen that's OSSC linetriple compatible?

You're getting over 30ms of lag on your set? That's worse than the D series 1080p screen. So with HDMI 5, Game picture mode and Game Latency on you still have that much lag? Here are settings that might help you out.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/ ... 6/settings

[Blair]

retrorgb, I thought you had the VP50 to help you with the line triple mode of the OSSC?

(wouldn't finding a TV that has the lowest input lag and best video quality possible (for your budget) be higher on the list than OSSC compatibility? especially if you already have something that fixes the compatibility issue?)

when you say the scanlines look weird, do you have your picture mode set properly? (no underscan or overscan?) (no zoom settings etc.)

[RGB0b]

You're getting over 30ms of lag on your set? That's worse than the D series 1080p screen. So with HDMI 5, Game picture mode and Game Latency on you still have that much lag? Here are settings that might help you out.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/ ... 6/settings

Already copied those and turned off all extra processing. Made no difference. The only thing that made a difference was the "game latency" and HDMI 5.

retrorgb, I thought you had the VP50 to help you with the line triple mode of the OSSC?

I do, but I'm testing these to post on my site, as a recommendation to other people looking to buy a new TV. I'll also be selling the VP50 soon if anyone's interested....I bought it to test, not to use.

(wouldn't finding a TV that has the lowest input lag and best video quality possible (for your budget) be higher on the list than OSSC compatibility? especially if you already have something that fixes the compatibility issue?)

It would be awesome if we can find TV's that do both. I'd love to be able to post a list of new TV's (ranging from cheap to high-end) that people who are looking for a "Gaming TV" can buy, knowing it's low-latency and OSSC compatible. Alternatively, if there was a low-lag TV that didn't support the OSSC linetriple mode, a cheap solution to make it compatible would be great (I believe Blizz uses a monitor that's less then 1 frame of lag, but not a large TV).

BTW, did anyone ever try the iScan Micro?

As an FYI, I purchased this HDMI to component adapter and it made no difference on my plasma that's incompatible with linetriple mode: http://www.ebay.com/itm/322112913967 Linetriple didn't work at all and linedouble created interference on top (which is exactly what my TV did when I used a Kramer FC-14 with my Dreamcast...the FC-14 worked with other consoles, just not the DC. Maybe the issue is my TV???):

when you say the scanlines look weird, do you have your picture mode set properly? (no underscan or overscan?) (no zoom settings etc.)

The TV's settings are extremely limited in game mode, so there's no real choices. The scanlines look too close together, like the image is being compressed vertically. I'm sorry, I didn't snap a picture...I'll try to get one before the weekend is over.

As an FYI, in comparison, I tested the OSSC on a Sony x80c 65 inch 4K TV and Scanlines looked really close to the Sony PVM it was sitting next to. Total lag was 2 - 2.5 frames as well though...wish it was less. Please excuse the iPhone-picture comparison...I didn't expect to use the pics for anything, so I didn't use a DSLR for these:

[ZellSF]

As an FYI, I purchased this HDMI to component adapter and it made no difference on my plasma that's incompatible with linetriple mode: http://www.ebay.com/itm/322112913967 Linetriple didn't work at all and linedouble created interference on top (which is exactly what my TV did when I used a Kramer FC-14 with my Dreamcast...the FC-14 worked with other consoles, just not the DC. Maybe the issue is my TV???):

I've ordered this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HDMI-to-RGB-Com ... 2474410772
But shipping from China will take forever. I tried a cheap VGA adapter from work, which actually gave me an image in linetriple on my Panasonic. Just too jittery to be playable.

Probably just going to run everything through my VP50 at all times though and likely won't ever use it even if I get it working. I just want a low latency option in addition to a more image quality focused one. I really can't tell the 8ms lag difference the VP50 does though.

[Yohanov]

Random question, sorry if it's dumb :
Would one be able to enjoy the scanline generator from the OSSC on a vga crt from a windows PC source, using the OSSC vga imput as a passthrough ?

I got a steam game with a native res of 480p, which would benefit a lot from scanlines (my crt natural scanlines are too thin) so if the OSSC would do the job I wouldn't need to buy a proper scanline generator.

Thanks

[BuckoA51]

It should work just fine for this, yes. > 480p the scanlines won't really line up right, but 480p it should work great.