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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:39 am 



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Yeah that part also had me roll my eyes.

Anyhow, so you say that the survival school would really care about lost scoring opportunities because a life is lost while they wouldn't care about it in PCB because they don't lose a life? That doesn't make much sense. Scoring is usually balancing risk versus reward in shmups.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:17 pm 


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What about that part? If both of you think I said anything incorrect then present your rebuttals in a detailed, concise paragraph because I have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say with those one-liners.

Quote:
Anyhow, so you say that the survival school would really care about lost scoring opportunities because a life is lost while they wouldn't care about it in PCB because they don't lose a life? That doesn't make much sense. Scoring is usually balancing risk versus reward in shmups.

I'm not in any way accusing PCB players of being from survival school nor condemning its mechanics. I'm simply using that game to point out that the risk=reward playstyle has been in the series since forever. What, then, makes games like PCB less subjective to flak than EoSD and UFO? Aside from the difference in resource, it's the penalty. What type of player is bothered by this life/bomb penalty? The survival school.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:20 pm 


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Don't mind me, I just find that particular phrase amusing.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:23 pm 


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I don't know very much about Touhou at all (only played some Imperishable Nights) but I find this discussion InTeReStinG!
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:38 pm 


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I'm sending a little to congratulate you, ProMeTheus. Very very good stuff, I read that all in once (even though I actually hate reading, so it's a double victory).

This should definitively help me to reach out the 100M (maybe more?) score in DDP (already pretty close, shouldn't be much longer now actually).
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:50 am 



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Formless God wrote:
What about that part? If both of you think I said anything incorrect then present your rebuttals in a detailed, concise paragraph because I have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say with those one-liners.


Alright then. You obviously have no idea how SA scoring is done.

Formless God wrote:
On Lunatic even scoring boils down to simply "don't die" (except lots of suicides for more graze, more bombs and killing of enemies) because your graze gauge is practically full the entire time (maybe but you'll also have to apply strats to optimize your grazing for each and every section), and the life scheme encourages bombing (a life is worth more than a bomb unless suicided in a benefitial way. You'll still want to avoid unplanned deaths. And you'll still not want to bomb unless it benefits your score. i really don't see the problem). It's a pretty "survival" game no matter what you're doing.(no)


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:26 am 


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To me SA lunatic scoring is like this!

1cc game -> watch some replays and try to learn from them -> try some supergrazes/bomb timing grazes to determine if they are manageable -> add to your route -> do runs with new route -> repeat from 1cc step, or if you can't 1cc anymore skip that step and watch more replays instead :3
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:32 am 


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Or you can
have scrub score -> copy replays -> practice 500 hours -> get less scrubby scores but still scrubby on japanese boards


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:44 am 


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Quote:
lots of suicides for more graze

How the fuck do you get graze from suiciding?
Quote:
for [...] more bombs

Only a handful of milk spots requires this.
Quote:
for [...] killing of enemies

Is you serious?
Quote:
a life is worth more than a bomb unless suicided in a benefitial way. You'll still want to avoid unplanned deaths.

Looks like we are in agreement, then?
Quote:
And you'll still not want to bomb unless it benefits your score.

Fortunately this isn't necessary because as you said, you can just suicide whenever you need more bombs.

PROMETHEUS wrote:
I don't know very much about Touhou at all (only played some Imperishable Nights) but I find this discussion InTeReStinG!

Sorry Prom! Probably shouldn't have included the second paragraph altogether because touching a 17-game series is like stirring up a nest of ants.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:35 pm 


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You don't know what you're talking about if you don't even know you suicide for graze and for killing of enemies... You also can't "just suicide whenever you need more bombs" because then you would get a Game Over. I don't even play SA and this is pretty basic... Just drop it
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:15 pm 


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You bomb for graze, not suicide. Suicide gets you more bomb, which you use to supergraze. "You'll still not want to bomb unless it benefits your score" implies that if you're saving bombs to milk something later, it's better to die with bombs in stock, but that is just plain wrong.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:48 pm 


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Yes you do suicide for graze. You are invulnerable when you respawn and can graze at the end of the invulnerability period. This is a scoring trick present in most of the windows games including SA. It's only less prominent in SA than in, say, EoSD because of the sheer volume of bombs present in SA, you if you deny that it's a thing then you are misinformed and I'm just correcting you.

You do suicide to kill enemies. This is crucial on stage 4 midboss, I don't know how all the shots do it but I know ReimuA is a bit spoiled there and can also kill all the enemies with a single bomb. Suiciding to kill enemies can also play a role elsewhere and is prominent in some of the other games such as DDC.

No matter how I look at SA I can't view it as a survival game due to all the bombs and lives spent and crazy stunts performed while leaving no lives to spare for the majority of the game. I know UKT in his World Record doesn't let a single life fragment remain after his stage 4 midboss suicide
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:35 pm 


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chum wrote:
You are invulnerable when you respawn and can graze at the end of the invulnerability period. This is a scoring trick present in most of the windows games including SA. It's only less prominent in SA than in, say, EoSD because of the sheer volume of bombs present in SA, you if you deny that it's a thing then you are misinformed and I'm just correcting you.

Oh, if it's the invulnerability period then yes I'm aware of it and I use it all the time. A lot of things happen when you suicide and I was thinking about the part before the respawn.
Quote:
You do suicide to kill enemies. This is crucial on stage 4 midboss, I don't know how all the shots do it but I know ReimuA is a bit spoiled there and can also kill all the enemies with a single bomb. Suiciding to kill enemies can also play a role elsewhere and is prominent in some of the other games such as DDC.

Yes, I'll give you that one; I completely forgot about that for a moment because I normally keep a bomb around whenever I need to wipe the screen.
Quote:
No matter how I look at SA I can't view it as a survival game due to all the bombs and lives spent and crazy stunts performed while leaving no lives to spare for the majority of the game. I know UKT in his World Record doesn't let a single life fragment remain after his stage 4 midboss suicide

Bomb to secure the life fragments, bomb to graze, graze to autocollect more power which you use to bomb again. It gets threatening when you're down to the last life but even then, the signal system gives you a bomb back in no time. Maybe "survival" wasn't a very accurate word to use, but it's the overabundance of bombs and the autocollect making the player feel less inclined to get out of their safe zone that gave me that impression regardless.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:50 pm 


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Oh in that case where just disagreeing on semantics really. I do think It's kinda wimpy (survival-y!) how you can get away with bombing hard spells with just about no penalty, like DBDB. People define survival differently, I think everyone can agree on that survival is all about minimizing risks but in regards to bombing, some people equate survival with using them, other equate it with no bomb. SA gives so many bombs and using them all over the place is encouraged (both to clear and to score) unless you are doing a challenge run, which is in tune with one definition of survival but not with another.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:05 pm 


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Can't download the guide. :? Is the link dead?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:35 pm 


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Link isn't working for me either, but I happen to have the file in my Dropbox: Link
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:28 am 


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SAM is back!!! :D
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:18 pm 


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Hey, I just updated the link to a direct link.
About 7000 downloads, still an average of approx 3 downloads a day like before :]
Cheers!
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:22 pm 


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Thank you, guys! :D
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:40 pm 


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Downloaded.
This guide helps me well, reminds me of I struggled clear FC Gradius II special run, R-Type Delta, and Guwange. And yes save states are the best. :D
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:12 pm 


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More of just a general practice question here, but I figure this is a good place to ask: How do you all practice games that aren't save state-able (is that a word)? I DL'd Triggerheart Exelica on XBLA and my progress seems really slow comparatively.


Last edited by GGA_HAN on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:47 pm 


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If possible, use continues and credit-feed through the game at least a couple times to get a feel for all the stages. Stage practice is also a big help if you have that. When I was trying to 1-ALL DOJBL, though, I didn't use any savestates and only credit-fed once, which is definitely a slower process than being able to practice each section individually, but I personally find it more fun in general to practice through full credits. The idea is to gradually get more consistent at the earlier stages so you can get to and gain experience on the later stages more frequently. This makes you best at the beginning of the game and less experienced at each successive stage, though bombing past certain difficulty spikes (like the final phase of the stage 3 boss in DOJ) can help you get to those later stages more often. As the earlier stages become too easy for you, you can learn to optimize them and score better; even Dodonpachi's tight chaining can be pieced together gradually through many full credits.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:42 am 


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For games without save states, highly recommend credit feeding all runs. Just make sure you are learning from each death.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:18 pm 


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Personally if I don't have save states available I would refuse practicing seriously for any long period of time due to the large amount of time wasted but I'm probably a bit ruthless :P
but occasionally at events, I would repeatedly play just one game on PCB to try and get better.
I approach it then in a simple manner. The most important thing is to prevent waste of time, so you will want to reach for consistency to avoid repetition of easier parts. [it's not just to waste less time / learn faster, but also to make it more fun, because losing repeatedly for putting yourself in impossible situations repeatedly is not all that fun I think. These games are designed to be hard when you know where to be and what to do, so if you don't they will often put you in impossible or very volatile situations which don't involve your skills quite as much!]. At first, I just fly around trying to survive and at the same time be somewhere that doesn't seem disadvantageous to the scoring system. Then, anywhere I die I try to remember and either approach it differently, be ready to bomb, and I do bomb a lot then though not pre-emptively, trying to find a better way to approach or dodge, and try not to die with bombs in stock. The difficult thing to do here is to actually remember where you died and what happened shortly before that death so that you don't repeat a faulty path. Watching other players helps better than actually playing because you can observe a lot better. I think, taking time to study outside of play is even more important when you don't have save states. Basically experimenting is cumbersome, so outside study gains in relative importance. I've heard that players in Japan, when a new game comes out, they watch each other play a lot and even make some simple drawings of levels sometimes to figure out how/what to do. Whereas with savestates + video, you don't have to spend a lot of time watching the video at all because it is so easy to repeat experimenting with the section in the video. So you watch it once and try it 20 times, maybe watch it 3 or 4 more times and then you are able to do it yourself through experience. Whereas without save states you may need to see it done more times and map it in your head more precisely before you get your chance at playing it.

That's what I would say on this topic. If you follow the game's proposed approach, to reach for score extends as first goal, then the bonus extend trick, then get to the end boss (no need to all), then get more points, all the while doing outside study focusing on mistakes you make often and always try to avoid memorizing routes that are merely pure survival and completely detrimental to scoring, then you are on the right path I guess! Avoiding pure survival routes also ensures you are not playing a too-easy game that also don't improve your skill! That is also why you should really avoid any form of pre-emptive bombing! (but instead definitely practice your bombing skills)

Tbh I think when you own the game, probably the best would be to first perfect stage 1 by just always restarting at the end of stage 1 and doing outside study until you get a really good score and no bomb/death regularly enough. Then go to learn stage 2 by playing stage 1 and 2 and restarting at the end of stage 2, etc until you know the whole game. Not wasting time trying to fly around in further stages when you can't yet reach them consistently in strong conditions. If there is something to focus your efforts on at first, it would be those stages that you simply must play when you start a run, so the first stage, then the second, then the third... That would be the most efficient I think if you want to get a solid score over the whole game. To push this logic further, you would start learning stage 2 once you are at like 50% consistency in a known "perfect" or "wanted" stage 1 scoring route, so that every time you play stage 1 before stage 2 you are practicing consistency on stage 1 as well... as long as failure in stage 1 doesn't impact being able to practice the scoring route of stage 2 which depends on the game. Maybe just knowing the scoring path and having no consistency is enough to start learning the next stage while just practicing consistency............. like, the first time you get a perfect stage 1 with the high score you aimed for, then you stop restarting @end of stage 1 and start learning stage 2 and @same time just prax stage 1 consistency, that would be most efficient and fun, probably :D

For me efficient and fun go hand in hand really, just need to set your goals right, not too high or you may be stuck in failure forever, not too low or you will learn nothing and just take small pleasure in easy wins.

If you want something more simple, not optimized scoring, then I guess it would be fastest to try and learn everything at the same time by completing your runs and just looking over a bit of everything like I described before. That is likely more fun too if you have no intention of breaking very high scores. That's how you would get a ALL with a decent score fastest, but not how you would get a very good score fastest. It is also probably better if you have no video or other player to watch, because then you will have to make it all up. So yeah in that case, credit feeding repeatedly, sure, just catch any chance you get to learn something about later stages, makes sense.

Maybe you'd want to do the credit feeding thing until you get ALL and general idea of the whole game, then switch to the suggested sequential practice method. Doing all this credit feeding play beforehand would then help a lot not setting your goal too high or too low, and it would ease the process of learning any sections for precise high scoring afterwards because you have a general idea of everything already to use as a knowledge base. In the case of having no save states or level select, yes I would imagine that's great.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:58 am 


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Hey Prometheus how would you compare the the difficulty of Dodonpachi and DOJ BL? Which has the harder stages? Which has the more difficult TLB?

Thanks!
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:46 pm 


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Hey Armchair General,
it's a bit different in nature I would say. DOJ varies more in difficulty depending on how much you raise the rank, and in BL the rank drops quite a lot if you die just once. If you optimize scoring, you end up starting to do much harder things than DDP from the very beginning of the run. Overall patterns are faster and meaner in DOJ, but in DDP your hitbox is quite a bit bigger (and also the bullets' hitboxes I think), so you get hit more easily (that's a key difference between them). DDP's second loop starts to become a lot meaner in 2-4, and the difficulty afterwards is sort of comparable to DOJ's end game. It's not as fast, but it falls into impossible situations quicker. Bosses generally are not as difficult but still have really dangerous troublespots. It really depends on rank, if you're at max rank DOJ's endgame is harder than DDP, if you've died it's less hard.

Hibachi, the difference is interesting. DDP's TLB is really really good I think because it's very hard, but manageable, it lasts a long time and you get more bombs.. and the patterns are never quite the same. In DOJ it's possible to kind of skip some things a little more and depends more on a planned resource management, and doesn't last long, but plenty of really hard troublespots. A bit more luck factor and opportunity for free damage with invincibility ; a lot more speed. I really like some of the patterns and rythm of TLB in DOJ, but I think DDP's TLB is a bit better balanced, a bit smarter perhaps.

It's really difficult to answer this question, it's interesting though. Overall, DOJ BL is harder, especially at max rank it is overall seriously harder. DDP punishes any knowledge mistake with a impossible situation especially in second loop, more so than DOJ, gives you a lot more bombs but never drops the rank. It makes it almost as difficult to get a 2-ALL because it's easy to lose those extra bombs by dying with stocks, and Hibachi too requires really good skills and bomb management to kill it.. but the last pattern is more fair, whereas in DOJ it's just too fast. lol

If I would just throw a number, I would say for max scoring, if DDP is 100 difficulty, DOJBL is ~130 (WL ~140?). But if you play for survival 2-ALL, it's kinda similar, DDP is probably easier in first loop and a bit harder in second loop because of the rank drop of DOJBL but you can save things with good bombing. I think if you play pure survival it's probably harder to get 2-ALL of DDP than DOJBL, but not DOJWL. Also in my opinion, DDP has some mean spikes in second loop that can end your scoring run, a bit more randomly (2-3 midboss and boss for example). DOJBL is a bit more reliable or stable in difficulty while maintaining it at a high level (less random variation of difficulty from one run to the next).
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:54 am 


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Thanks for the info. If you wouldn't mind answering another question, I'm wondering how often you look up at the hit counter? I've been trying to 2-all and score in Donpachi for the past two months and I have an issue where I look up at the hit counter to see how my chain is doing and get killed because I can't dodge properly because I'm not looking at my ship. If I look at my ship then I tend to get lower chains but don't die as often.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:42 am 


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I don't really look at the hit counter, hit gauge maybe in some cases if you need to get as much delay as possible in some places, to know exactly when to shoot again, but rarely (mostly do this by learning to feel that timing rather than look at the gauge, but it does help to be more precise and gain a little more time). I don't recommend looking there while you dodge or need to get a reading before a dodge, you just need half a second of safety or something. Why look at the hit counter other than in practice to check that you get more or less hits depending on your chosen route details? When that is settled, then you would only look at it when there is really no need to look somewhere else, no risk.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:17 am 


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Ok thanks for the info! :D
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:52 am 


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Just read the document! It will help me with my 1st 1cc (Gunbird) although it is not danmaku.
You can't compare with DoDonPachi, but still very hard to me. Great text!!
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