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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitively
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:05 am 


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Read your guide, it's excellent without a doubt. Though I may have played the genre for years, i'm far off from being decent. The only real 1ccs I have on my account are Armed Police Batrider and Battle Bakraid on Advanced. I plan to eventually beat the game with at least 10 millions in batrider, I just need to think how exactly I would go around practicing that. I noticed I always drop my chain at stage 5, perhaps I need to iron this one out in savestates. Right now I can't do it because life gets in the way (damn exams in 2 weeks, once they are over, i'm free to roll).
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:46 am 


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Link in the OP seems to be broken. Anyone have an alt?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:31 am 


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This one did it for me :
http://goo.gl/Fi2zE
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:48 pm 


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Hey man.

:D bubba you just made my day!

Never did I think to use save states to improve my game....Duh!! sounds so simple now!
I normally restart afresh everytime, but the game tends to run thin after a while so I have always struggled to keep to one. Flitting around from game to game with a faint hope of ever getting a 1cc.
Now things just became a whole lot easier, I can practice tough sections without playing back through the whole thing :D
I can almost taste my first 1cc.

Thanks again.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:48 am 


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hey man, cool to have helped get the idea to you faster!
happy practicing :D
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:00 pm 


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Great DoDonPachi guide Prometheus, thanks a lot.
I might start using save state. :)
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:51 pm 


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thanks man and definitely do, they're the best tool and fun to use! do it your way with savestates!
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:56 pm 


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What versions of CAVEui or SHMUPMAME support Save Stating atm? It is getting pretty frustrating practically having to restart a game when I mess up even once. For example, Ketsui Stage 2 boss' Final Attacks. No idea how to dodge it safely.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:18 pm 


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Everytime I die with a few bombs left, I shake my head and feel like I've let Prometheus down...

Wyrm, I'm pretty sure most versions of mame support save states, press tab, check the key bindings for user interface. I think the default is F7
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:48 pm 


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My issue is that I have something of a Superiority Complex. I have this weird notion I can't shake that I couldn't even post in forums like these if I'm not doing something like.. 1ccing LUNATIC runs on random Touhou games. Believe me I wanna shake this bad mindset.

I get really discouraged and even envious when I see Jaimers or Ite's Superplays as suggested videos from my own youtube videos. It's like being dishonored or something despite that what I have on my Youtube channel is my very best. I think if I had more Self Esteem or confidence, I could do alot better on SHMUPs because I'd have the will to practice more and more instead of quitting on the first death. Why? Because I don't want to be overshadowed.

Hopefully you get what I mean. Not sure how else to word it x.x
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:55 pm 


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Blinge wrote:
Everytime I die with a few bombs left, I shake my head and feel like I've let Prometheus down...

Haha don't worry, I die with bombs in stock too!
The key is to try improving your consistance at not dying with bombs left, and weighing risk vs possible reward at all times to decide when you should perhaps/maybe/probably/definitely bomb and try to learn lessons from mistakes by analyzing what happened... etc

Wyrmnus wrote:
My issue is that I have something of a Superiority Complex. I have this weird notion I can't shake that I couldn't even post in forums like these if I'm not doing something like.. 1ccing LUNATIC runs on random Touhou games. Believe me I wanna shake this bad mindset.

I get really discouraged and even envious when I see Jaimers or Ite's Superplays as suggested videos from my own youtube videos. It's like being dishonored or something despite that what I have on my Youtube channel is my very best. I think if I had more Self Esteem or confidence, I could do alot better on SHMUPs because I'd have the will to practice more and more instead of quitting on the first death. Why? Because I don't want to be overshadowed.

Hopefully you get what I mean. Not sure how else to word it x.x

Becoming conscious of your flaws is the first step towards improvement! And if you can even tell others, that's another step! Now realize you may never be the best, but what matters to you is learning/improving and trying to reach your objectives, find your own path towards erasing this superiority complex!

MAME : for DDP Shmupmame 2.2 seems to fail with savestates I believe, latest version works better. Try another version of shmupmame you should find one that works with it or that other game. (Ketsui & DOJ have no problem with savestates on ShmupMAME 2.2 for me)
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:10 am 


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Blinge wrote:
Everytime I die with a few bombs left, I shake my head and feel like I've let Prometheus down...

From my own experience, once you get good, all your deaths will be with bombs left because you don't see them coming. You only bomb when you screw up your route and end up with an impossible pattern.
Another thing is quickly deciding if you can recover from your current situation or if you should drop a bomb.

Wyrmnus wrote:
My issue is that I have something of a Superiority Complex. I have this weird notion I can't shake that I couldn't even post in forums like these if I'm not doing something like.. 1ccing LUNATIC runs on random Touhou games. Believe me I wanna shake this bad mindset.


That's because they have way, way more playtime than you do, in shmups, playtime is the #1 thing
in other words, keep playing and stop feeling bad, it's perfectly normal to be worse than someone who played for a few thousand hours

There really is no better advice than keep playing.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:23 am 


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I've never really understood the term 'route' here. Although I kind of have an idea of what it may mean, could you explain in detail how people use that term here?
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:41 pm 


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Wyrmnus wrote:
I've never really understood the term 'route' here. Although I kind of have an idea of what it may mean, could you explain in detail how people use that term here?

Following the same exact path through a stage every time to reduce danger to a minimum


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:20 pm 


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A reason I don't like looking at replays is because, say I finally 1cc a hard shooter after what could seem like ZOMBIE LIKE STUDYING of a good replay, and I finally upload that sonuvagun. What might happen is someone comments and says 'Oh, you practically did what this guy other did. Not legit lolol.'

That shit'll just break me mentally, man. It's a pride thing of simply wanting to be recognized as one of the gang and not just some groupie.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:48 pm 


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Wyrmnus wrote:
'Oh, you practically did what this guy other did. Not legit lolol.'

That doesn't happen ever
even in an arcade, I assume players watch each other and exchange different strategies in that way

people who actually think the above thing don't know shit about shmups, because even just "copying" a replay can take months


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:57 pm 



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The fun thing about (good) shmups is that there is no need to give any dumb restrictions to yourself to make them challenging.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:59 pm 


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That actually encourages me a bit, Banana. I just wish comments on some videos weren't so discouraging. One time on a SDOJ Music track vid, someone said 'It's a PGM. It scares away the WUSSIES!.'

Crap like that gets on my nerves. Feels like I'm being looked down upon, thus my pride getting the better of me. Again :(
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:01 am 


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You need to realise that mentality means you're letting imaginary enemies ruin your game, fuck those guys, it's your game!

Seriously, where does anybody else factor in to you playing your game alone? And alone is where you get good, your uploads or score posts are reaping the reward of that quality alone time. You can worry about external factors when you reach them.. and I'm guessing at that point they won't matter anymore.

I suggest finding that thread "shmup confessions " and pouring your soul out :mrgreen:

Edit: wrote thread as "threat"
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:32 am 


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Wyrmnus wrote:
A reason I don't like looking at replays is because, say I finally 1cc a hard shooter after what could seem like ZOMBIE LIKE STUDYING of a good replay, and I finally upload that sonuvagun. What might happen is someone comments and says 'Oh, you practically did what this guy other did. Not legit lolol.'


Kind of reminds of the time I was beating up this guy in a fighting game, and he accused me of being uncreative and cheaping out by learning combos from other players instead of inventing them myself in training mode.

...

I mean it was true. But who has more dignity here, the guy who won and is being a good sport, or the guy who lost and is making excuses to try (keyworld try) and make his opponent feel worse?

I haven't personally seen that happen in the realm of shmups ever, but if it did rest assured that it's just typical scrub talk. If that happens and it gets to you just read some David Sirlin and feel better about yourself.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:21 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
Wyrmnus wrote:
'Oh, you practically did what this guy other did. Not legit lolol.'

That doesn't happen ever
even in an arcade, I assume players watch each other and exchange different strategies in that way

people who actually think the above thing don't know shit about shmups, because even just "copying" a replay can take months


Yeah, nobody ever says that. Play shmups in a group and you'll often find yourself talking about stuff like "oh cool, I didn't think of doing it that way" and collectively you'll learn to apply optimal strategies to your own runs. When everyone has full knowledge of the best tips and tricks available, just like in a fighting game, it helps to up the skill and competitiveness of the community as a whole. Just because someone's recorded a really good replay doesn't necessarily mean the techniques in there are easy to execute, either.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:22 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
The guy who lost and is making excuses to try (keyworld try) and make his opponent feel worse

I haven't personally seen that happen in the realm of shmups ever

It does happen. Replace "you" with "score player", "this guy" with "survival player" and "combos" with "mechanics" and that's basically the current situation in the STG realm. Game has a scoring system? Weeaboo memofest. Playing the game in any different way than miserably flailing about trying to not get hit? Go acquire a life.

And let's not forget the entire 2hu fanbase. Babies fresh out of MoF and SA survival schools touch EoSD and UFO, get their asses handed over on a silver platter then proceed to scream quarter-muncher and artificial difficulty everywhere they go.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:11 am 


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Formless God wrote:
And let's not forget the entire 2hu fanbase. Babies fresh out of MoF and SA survival schools touch EoSD and UFO, get their asses handed over on a silver platter then proceed to scream quarter-muncher and artificial difficulty everywhere they go.

is this true


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:03 pm 



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I wouldn't necessarily call SA survival school. I think that'd go more toward IN. of course, then I'm looking at it more from Lunatic. If we were talking Normal, then any of them could pretty much be called that.

EoSD is pretty quality though, pretty fun gameplay. Though I don't find UFO very fun.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:03 am 



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Formless God wrote:
And let's not forget the entire 2hu fanbase. Babies fresh out of MoF and SA survival schools touch EoSD and UFO, get their asses handed over on a silver platter then proceed to scream quarter-muncher and artificial difficulty everywhere they go.


What? While I'm sure there are examples of people reacting like that, don't just claim that the 'entire' community does it. You are probably right about there being some people who behaves in this manner but that sounds like more of a general gaming community thing instead of something just restricted to fans of the Touhou games.

Chaos Phoenixma wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily call SA survival school. I think that'd go more toward IN.


They are both examples of games where things are very memorizable. They are about equal.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:28 pm 


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Chaos Phoenixma wrote:
Though I don't find UFO very fun.


Why not? (I agree, but that's more because I'm not fond of the whole UFO chaining thing, trying to collect moving powerups and keeping an eye on colour changes while navigating dense bullet patterns doesn't let me focus on simply dodging enough, and ideal scoring is basically all blue UFOs, remembering the ideal places to activate them, remembering where each colour shows up, etc...)
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:11 pm 


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People don't like going out of position to catch the pickups. But at the end of the day it's still simply a form of bullet dodging and the only way to fail it is by not having enough skill. And it isn't like you aren't already doing it either. In PCB you dance inside bullet clouds to get as much graze as possible but I guess it isn't too offensive because the game runs at half UFO's speed.

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I wouldn't necessarily call SA survival school.

On Lunatic even scoring boils down to simply "don't die" because your graze gauge is practically full the entire time, and the life scheme encourages bombing. It's a pretty "survival" game no matter what you're doing.
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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:28 pm 



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Formless God wrote:
In PCB you dance inside bullet clouds to get as much graze as possible but I guess it isn't too offensive because the game runs at half UFO's speed.


I don't even...


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:42 pm 


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On second thought, "slower" isn't a very accurate comparison to make (it's still there though), so let's try that again.

When a [scoring opportunity] shows up (Border | UFO)
You go into the bullets to [do something] (graze | pick up)
Doing this gives you [score] (immediate | delayed !!)
Upon fucking up, you are [penalized] (score gone | score + 1 life/bomb gone !!)
The [following scoring opportunity] is affected ((50,000 - 30*bullet_count) less points required than usual | too many variables, but none in a positive manner !!)
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RegalSin wrote:
Then again sex is no diffrent then sticking a stick down some hole to make a female womenly or girl scream or make noise.


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 Post subject: Re: ST: Full Extent of the Jam - Playing Shmups Competitivel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:00 am 


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Formless God wrote:
On Lunatic even scoring boils down to simply "don't die" because your graze gauge is practically full the entire time, and the life scheme encourages bombing. It's a pretty "survival" game no matter what you're doing.


kek


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