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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:29 pm 


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BER wrote:
I feel like I haven't reached my peak yet, so talent has never been the limiting factor for me. I hope that talent isn't a limiting factor for anyone. I just don't know what to say to someone if he feels he has everything but talent.

I don't believe in talent, or talent merely represents already acquired skills, from previous experience, or physical predispositions.
I think anyone can be really great no matter who they are. If someone plays a lot and matches all the criteria you wrote, but isn't improving, then he is practicing in an extremely unefficient way.

Being a great player is one thing, breaking world records is another. The amount of luck required to beat a world record is huge, so even if you're as skilled or more skilled than whoever is holding it, there is a chance you will fail beating it even if you try several hours a day for years. It is possible some people could reach a limit at some very high point, too, where they would progress so slowly that it would take them a lifetime to become as good as the world record holder.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:21 pm 


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ISO is a very luck guy since he has a lot WR.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:56 pm 


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third_strike wrote:
ISO is a very luck guy since he has a lot WR.

Good point, brings up the question of what role luck really plays in all this business.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:55 pm 


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PROMETHEUS wrote:
Good point, brings up the question of what role luck really plays in all this business.


The way I see it, if we're taking your general Cave game as an example, getting:

> to 50% of WR - basic skill;
> 51-70% of WR - intermediate skill and good understanding of the scoring system;
> 71-90% of WR - advanced skill and knowledge;
> 90-100% of absolute maximum - complete refinement, a bit of luck.

I'd reckon luck largely applies to a lot of games with somewhat complex scoring systems, or where score comes from a variety of factors - for example Kasumi and Teresa hadougun milking in Ibara, Super Nova second and third form laser pattern in Pink Sweets, Black Heart2 in Battle Garegga. In games with simpler scoring systems, for example R-Type, getting to around 90% of WR is a process of refinement.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:12 am 


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Icarus wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:
Good point, brings up the question of what role luck really plays in all this business.


The way I see it, if we're taking your general Cave game as an example, getting:

> to 50% of WR - basic skill;
> 51-70% of WR - intermediate skill and good understanding of the scoring system;
> 71-90% of WR - advanced skill and knowledge;
> 90-100% of absolute maximum - complete refinement, a bit of luck.


Not to be a douche, but 30M in Donpachi with basic skill? 350M in DDP with basic skill and not "good understanding of the scoring system"? 20M in Esprade with a less than "good" understanding of the scoring system? 500whatever in Guwange without having a good understanding of the scoring system? 150M in Progear without a good understanding of the scoring system? 1.75B in DOJ without knowing the scoring system back to front? I think the only game I can't really say much about there is Dangun Feveron. Just kill and collect shit without dying. Perhaps your chart would work better for Psikyo games :P
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:33 am 


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m3tall1ca wrote:
Not to be a douche


I was going off the example of Japanese players like ISO. Drop the example percentage thresholds considerably for Western players. ;p

And of course, it largely depends on the absolute maximum of the game in question, and the complexity/difficulty in manipulating the scoring system - chaining systems (eg Donpachi series) and item-based multipliers (eg Progear) will change those thresholds somewhat (to something like 10-25-40 for Western players). Still, someone with a decent level of capability and experience can hit around 50% or more with a bit of work, as we've seen in the past.

P.S - 20mil in Esprade is trivial.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:51 am 


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Without a "good" understanding of the scoring system? ^_-
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:22 am 


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m3tall1ca wrote:
Without a "good" understanding of the scoring system? ^_-

With shitloads of milking and a lot of patience, yes. That's one of the few things I don't like about ESP Ra.De - any player with a really high score got it by playing the game in a different (and IMHO less interesting) way than I do.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:04 pm 


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Quote:
The way I see it, if we're taking your general Cave game as an example, getting:

> to 50% of WR - basic skill;
> 51-70% of WR - intermediate skill and good understanding of the scoring system;
> 71-90% of WR - advanced skill and knowledge;
> 90-100% of absolute maximum - complete refinement, a bit of luck.


Couldn't disagree more! Especially for exponential scoring systems 50% of WR is a damn good score. Everything above 80%/90% is mastery, the rest is luck.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:33 pm 


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Icarus wrote:
And of course, it largely depends on the absolute maximum of the game in question, and the complexity/difficulty in manipulating the scoring system - chaining systems (eg Donpachi series) and item-based multipliers (eg Progear) will change those thresholds somewhat (to something like 10-25-40 for Western players).

10% of the WR versus 51% with respect to the same skill level is a big difference, to state it lightly. You may as well say there's no identifiable trend at all.

I have to agree with Plasmo about 50% of the WR being damned good, especially since our local scoretables don't include WRs right in the tables. Maybe in that way I'm an optimist.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:52 pm 


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RNGmaster wrote:
m3tall1ca wrote:
Without a "good" understanding of the scoring system? ^_-

With shitloads of milking and a lot of patience, yes. That's one of the few things I don't like about ESP Ra.De - any player with a really high score got it by playing the game in a different (and IMHO less interesting) way than I do.


So a player with basic skills is supposed to flawlessly milk how many bosses, for how long, through how dangerous of patterns to get 20M? And still doesn't understand that what he's doing gives him points?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:06 am 


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For me its always to play for a 1cc, but scoring is a huge part of this. Think about it...levels later in the game are harder to get to and they are harder to beat. It is inevitable that while you are trying to learn these later levels, that you'll be playing and replaying the earlier levels time and time again. With so many playthroughs, these levels become quite easy to simply beat. You could just coast through the levels without paying much attention, but this ceases to be fun. Instead, it is time to make scoring your priority for these. Still playing with the ultimate goal of 1cc, but also playing for score.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:38 am 


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Icarus wrote:
The way I see it, if we're taking your general Cave game as an example, getting:

> to 50% of WR - basic skill;
> 51-70% of WR - intermediate skill and good understanding of the scoring system;
> 71-90% of WR - advanced skill and knowledge;
> 90-100% of absolute maximum - complete refinement, a bit of luck.

That definitely depends on specific games.

I've experienced that it's much harder to get 50% of WR in DDP than it is in Guwange. And then 50% of WR in DOJ is much harder than 50% of WR in DDP. Some games are way easier to get 50% of WR than others, such as EspGaluda, EspRaDe, or Mushihimesamas Original modes.

Also from my point of view getting 50% of WR in a game like DDP represents much more than "intermediate skill and good understanding of the scoring system", I think we're already talking about serious skills and very precise knowledge of the game. You can't get a no miss no bomb of first loop with good scoring with anything less than major memorization efforts and great ability, and that's not even enough to get 350M ! (less than 50% of WR. You need to no miss no bomb up to 2-3 boss, with good/great chaining, for that. On a regular run I frequently score no more than 300M).
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:28 am 



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This is really good, I can use this. But what if MAME savestates just don't seem to want to work?


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:34 am 


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Naglfar wrote:
This is really good, I can use this. But what if MAME savestates just don't seem to want to work?


I find that SDLMAME very rarely has problems with save states. Give that a try.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:56 am 


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I've been playing shmups for about a month now and have been focusing on DDP as a starting point. Before I was simply grinding through run after run to get better. Although I've learned to survive Stage 1 and Stage 2 pretty consistently with ship A-L (this is the only kind of ship I can use these days without feeling like a coward) using this technique, it was hard for me to learn Stage 3 or Stage 4 and see signs of significant improvement.

Now I'm using the aforementioned tips from this thread and save states to zone in on problem areas. I basically play a tough area, where I would normally bomb to survive, and keep trying different routes until I can understand where my ship needs to start and end in each section, where the safest gaps are located, and which enemies need to be blasted quickly to avoid a mess of bullets on screen. Using these techniques I finally figured out how to get through the later half of Stage 3 No Miss (those green enemy ships were giving me some major trouble). I also developed a survival strategy for Stage 4 in a few hours and pulled that off a few times as well.

Once I can consistently No Miss all six stages of the first loop independently I'm gonna try and 1cc the first loop. It might take some time, but I'm pretty excited about the prospect of achieving this simple goal as someone green to playing these games.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:01 pm 


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finisherr wrote:
This is the only kind of ship I can use these days without feeling like a coward.


That's a bad attitude. Refusing to do things that you deem "cowardly" will often lead to you getting killed when you had bombs but didn't think it was a good space to use them.

Other than that, great job and great use of savestates! (I should consider practicing full stages myself.)
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:42 am 


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borislaw wrote:
For me its always to play for a 1cc, but scoring is a huge part of this. Think about it...levels later in the game are harder to get to and they are harder to beat. It is inevitable that while you are trying to learn these later levels, that you'll be playing and replaying the earlier levels time and time again. With so many playthroughs, these levels become quite easy to simply beat. You could just coast through the levels without paying much attention, but this ceases to be fun. Instead, it is time to make scoring your priority for these. Still playing with the ultimate goal of 1cc, but also playing for score.


Makes sense. Also (a little off topic) is your profile image a reference to the band Japandroids?


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:58 am 


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RNGmaster wrote:
finisherr wrote:
This is the only kind of ship I can use these days without feeling like a coward.


That's a bad attitude. Refusing to do things that you deem "cowardly" will often lead to you getting killed when you had bombs but didn't think it was a good space to use them.

Other than that, great job and great use of savestates! (I should consider practicing full stages myself.)


True, but picking a ship with a direct-vs-spread type shooting style, which is arguably harder to use for beginners, is a little different than than making reckless moves during gameplay. I just wanted to learn how to use these types of laser oriented ships early because I believe it'll come in handy in the long run. It seems as though ships with a more direct and powerful shooting style are superior if you know how to use them. Besides, they actually teach you how to dodge bullet patterns instead of trying to blast everything without dodging much.

I should also note that learning how and when to tap to avoid shots is pretty crucial. I just discovered how tiny little movements can really come in handy.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:18 am 


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finisherr wrote:
I've been playing shmups for about a month now and have been focusing on DDP as a starting point. Before I was simply grinding through run after run to get better. Although I've learned to survive Stage 1 and Stage 2 pretty consistently with ship A-L (this is the only kind of ship I can use these days without feeling like a coward) using this technique, it was hard for me to learn Stage 3 or Stage 4 and see signs of significant improvement.

Now I'm using the aforementioned tips from this thread and save states to zone in on problem areas. I basically play a tough area, where I would normally bomb to survive, and keep trying different routes until I can understand where my ship needs to start and end in each section, where the safest gaps are located, and which enemies need to be blasted quickly to avoid a mess of bullets on screen. Using these techniques I finally figured out how to get through the later half of Stage 3 No Miss (those green enemy ships were giving me some major trouble). I also developed a survival strategy for Stage 4 in a few hours and pulled that off a few times as well.

Once I can consistently No Miss all six stages of the first loop independently I'm gonna try and 1cc the first loop. It might take some time, but I'm pretty excited about the prospect of achieving this simple goal as someone green to playing these games.


You just described my unconsious practice excercise. No miss all stages seperately, then do it all in one run.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:53 am 



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I don't read all the topic sorry if i repeat ...(and sorry for my bad english too ^^")

Don't forget than i play only in gamecenter .


This is why :

I play many hours in a row ( i live at 80 km of gamecenter and when i played intensly i past 6 H at gamecenter putting 10 euros per day of play)

I watch superplay at home because i can't train.


For me it's important to understand the systeme of scoring even if I don't score.

I don't feed because I think if I lose and if I feed I'll loose quickly and I know the other stage because I watch superplay.

In gamecenter I watch other (better or good) player and talk with them (like forum ( special thanks to AM who gave me many sage advice!))

And I think the most important : keep the fun of playing !


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:41 pm 


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Luck surely is important. But remember, more practice will give you lots of luck.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:40 pm 



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for me no luck just pratice...


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:32 am 


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Wlf wrote:
For me no luck just practice...


That's what i did either! :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:08 pm 


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I think the main problem for me is scoring and whenever i get into tight situations i forget to bomb and go for glory instead i've only been playing consistently for about 5 months but it doesn't get any easier especially in the scoring department. :(


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:52 pm 


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I'm starting to get tired of the game I'm playing. The advice I've been given on this is conflicting - PROMETHEUS says to take a break and not play if you don't want to, but metallica among many other people has advised me to keep playing every day. Problem is that even if I take a break, I come back to Dragon Blaze just as frustrated and bored as I was when I left it. This could be a problem, since if I can't stay devoted to one game even if it's copiously fun like DB, then I won't be able to ever get good at any one title.

So, should I find a way to work through the boredom, or just keep being a jack of all trades and never accumulating any skill?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:52 am 


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My advice is to put some thought into why exactly you are getting tired with the game your playing. Does playing feel like a chore as opposed to play? Then that might be a sign of misplaced or unrealistic goals. Every time you pick up your keyboard you should have a clear idea as to what it is you want to accomplish that session - don't just play because you're 'supposed' to be. If you don't always have goals to work towards to, then you're quickly going to get tired of any game you play no matter how intricate or interesting it is. On the same note, if your goals are too high or unrealistic, then you'll burn yourself out from repeated failure as well. In that case you should either scale your expectations back, or split it into smaller more easily manageable goals to eventually work towards your big goal.

If that's not the problem, then it might just be that you can no longer appreciate the game's systems and play. There's nothing wrong with that - after all even if a game is really fun people need variety in their entertainment. If this is the case then you should remind yourself just what it is that you like about the game. Either that or accept that its time to move to a better game. Of course, just because you stop playing a game doesn't mean you can't start playing it again later down the road (hence why it's called "taking a break"). You might find that putting time into a new game will give you a new skill set and perspective which can revitalize your interest in the old game, as well as give you new thoughts on how to tackle any trouble areas you previously had.

Also keep in mind that you don't only have to restrict yourself to playing a single game at a time. I'm not sure if this will help you, but I like to mentally separate games I play into two categories - the 1st consists of game I seriously want to get good at. These games I'll tend to only play 1 or at most 2 at a time, and treat them with similar mindset to sports - play a little bit every day with the intention of improving myself every session. The other category consists of games I just play for recreation - these games are there to wind down after a hard day's work. I play these games with the same mindset that I have towards other recreational hobbies, which is to relax and recharge myself for the other activities/work which I enjoy more seriously. Sometimes I'll play games from the 1st category in this manner as well, in which case I don't play towards a goal but just to dick around. Doing so can sometimes help with getting you more familiar with the game and keep your skills sharp, but really my goal in doing so is just to unwind, not to get better.

If all of that is totally off the ball, then I hope someone else can help you!
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:18 pm 



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Firstly, this is an amazing thread. I have just finished reading the whole lot and I cannot wait to get home in a few days and start improving my skills. Thanks to everyone who has posted here.

I haven't been playing shmups long but it has been an instant love affair since Guwange's release on XBLA. Since then I've picked up DeathSmiles, Mushihimesama Futari, Espgaluda II and the recent PAL release of DDP:Resurrection. I've only 1CC'd DeathSmiles out of my little collection but my scoring improved alot after clearing it.

After reading all the advice hear I am definitely going to aim for the 1CC first, then worry about scoring afterwards as I think it holds me back with the other titles. I always die early in the 4th stage of Mushi Futari because I have no real experience from that point onwards. I'm going to practice those last few stages and forget the scoring until I have it all under control.

Once again, thanks all, and add me on XBLive if you like (Ranmaru 216) I'll be there, getting better and fighting towards those 1CC's :)


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:47 pm 


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As mentioned above, this thread is amazing.

I've been reading through Prometheous' guide and some of the other information on offer here and hope to find time to put some of it to good use. I've never really taken non beat'em'up/fighter games seriously before (outside of one specific exception, Resi 2 speedrunning) and I look forward to somewhat of a change of pace. The information on offer here is of such a ridiculously high quality, thanks for providing!

I've got my copies of DoDonPachi Resurrection and Deathsmiles on 360 and I'm going to start with DoDonPachi Resurrection as it's one I've played and enjoyed a lot already. Now is the time to put some real effort into it, and see if I can't start making some progress on not dying too early :D


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:06 pm 


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I'm considering playing without using bombs for a while, just so I can train myself at beeing more agressive and hopefuly get some better dodging skills.
Would that be a bad idea ? I know I've tried this in the past and quickly gave up, but if I'm trying seriously for some time I guess it'll eventually start to feel more natural, am I wrong ?
I often feels that beeing able to bomb just by pressing a button makes me too lazy and drives me to play without really calculating too much, wich is really noticeable when my bomb stock goes empty.

Thanks in advance if I get some answers (:
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