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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:08 am 


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I think it depends on what games you're playing, how good you are, and what your goals are.

If you're having a hard time getting to stage 4 in DDP on a credit, for example, removing bombs might be making things too hard for you at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:59 am 


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Instead of dropping the bombs, go practice the bits you can't handle until you feel more confident about them. Not using bombs in a game that you don't know how to play is just inviting frustration on yourself imo.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:25 am 


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7711 wrote:
I'm considering playing without using bombs for a while, just so I can train myself at beeing more agressive and hopefuly get some better dodging skills.
Would that be a bad idea ? I know I've tried this in the past and quickly gave up, but if I'm trying seriously for some time I guess it'll eventually start to feel more natural, am I wrong ?
I often feels that beeing able to bomb just by pressing a button makes me too lazy and drives me to play without really calculating too much, wich is really noticeable when my bomb stock goes empty.

Thanks in advance if I get some answers (:

(1) shit that's a lot of bullets :shock:
(2) do I try to weave/dodge or bomb my way through them?
(3) shit no time to decide
(4) BOMB.

^ My thought process, unfortunately :?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:42 pm 


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heisenbergman wrote:
(1) shit that's a lot of bullets :shock:
(2) do I try to weave/dodge or bomb my way through them?
(3) shit no time to decide
(4) BOMB.

^ My thought process, unfortunately :?

Unfortunately? Struggling with the "I can do it" syndrome is one of the things severely pushing me back from improving right now. I'd say if you can consistently let your bomb stock off before missing then you're on the right tracks.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:59 pm 


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After playing the newer CAVE games (MAMEUI), it is much easier to play DDP.

Good training.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:32 pm 


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I find myself having trouble playing shooting games, I try to play the same stages over until I get better at it.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:59 am 


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Dropping your bombs is retarded if you can't even clear. For a shitclear, bombing the crap out of everything is the way to go. If the game allows it, that is. My DDP 1-all bombs pretty much everything past stage 2. Why would I not? I don't know the game, but want to clear. I also didn't want to grind it for several days before getting it. What possibilities did I have? No bombing the game definitely wasn't one.

Use your resources. You have them for a goddamn reason. Not using them when you obviously need them isn't a good idea. Especially not when you're a slow learner. Once you are confident with the game you can disregard the bombs a bit more.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:52 pm 


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Sakurei wrote:
Dropping your bombs is retarded if you can't even clear. For a shitclear, bombing the crap out of everything is the way to go. If the game allows it, that is. My DDP 1-all bombs pretty much everything past stage 2. Why would I not? I don't know the game, but want to clear. I also didn't want to grind it for several days before getting it. What possibilities did I have? No bombing the game definitely wasn't one.

Use your resources. You have them for a goddamn reason. Not using them when you obviously need them isn't a good idea. Especially not when you're a slow learner. Once you are confident with the game you can disregard the bombs a bit more.

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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:06 pm 


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I want to bring up the topic of save states and stage select. I know this topic has been discussed A LOT and it all comes down to personal preferences. But what's been bugging me is the thought that the top japanese superplayers all got to where they are without savestates or stage select. So I am left wondering, if indeed the best players got to where they are without save states and without stage select, I wonder whether that is the best way to get better. I have drifted from save states and then back to starting from the beginning.

I know some people will just say, "hey, all of this doesn't matter, it's about what you find fun", which is true. But I want to understand how some people stand out from the rest, and what their training methods are. A couple years back I read prometheus' "full extent of the jam", and was convinced that savestate practice was the only way one could become better at a shmup within a certain period of time. But could it be that all the top cabinet players are simply grinding thousands of hours into their game? Whilst savestaters achieve what it takes some hundred hours in a couple of hours by pinpointing and finding the problem spots of each run.

It's weird for me, because I don't mind stage select in heavy memory games like r-type, but i opt not to use it in cave games. I get this feeling like I am cheating.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:24 pm 


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mastermx wrote:
But what's been bugging me is the thought that the top japanese superplayers all got to where they are without savestates or stage select. So I am left wondering, if indeed the best players got to where they are without save states and without stage select, I wonder whether that is the best way to get better. I have drifted from save states and then back to starting from the beginning.


They get to where they are by way of lots and lots of practice, like several hours a day, every day. They also have a more competitive community, and a culture of being more focused at whatever they do.
At the end of the day, do what you feel is right, and what works for you - if that means using states to focus your practice, then so be it. Some of our forum's top players use savestates and stage selects to work on areas they feel need refining, because it is quicker than playing through the same early stages again and again. You can also learn a lot more this way.

But don't call it cheating, because it is anything but.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:37 pm 


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It just feels so different. Like there are two people experiencing the game in two different ways completely. On the one hand you have someone who has put his hard earned money into the cabinet, and has made it to one of his trouble spots in the game. Not only has he invested his time and money, but he only has a certain number of lives to grasp why exactly he loses at this specific location and figure out a solution. He makes it to that trouble spot, his heart beating, his eyes wide open, the tension is unique.

And on the other hand you have someone sitting in the comfort of their own home. There is no pressure. The save state and stage select means they didnt need to work their way back to the trouble spot. The savestater is relaxed, there is no tension, there is no thrill. He is free to experiment, place his ship in obsecure locations, and when he loses there isn't even half the emotional investment as his arcade counterpart.

When the game developers designed the games. Surely the game design should have been so that even a non savestater will make progress. The game was designed for arcades where save stating wasn't availible, even credit feeding back to your previous position would cost you time and money. I'm not saying that savestating is cheating, but it sort of feels like it, because of the insane difference in both methods. It makes me wonder if arcade shmuppers would choose savestating if they could. If I could ask SWY or TAC a question, I would probably ask them to see if they truly believe that their non savestating method is the best way to learn and what method they enjoy most.

Currently what I enjoy depends on the game, the situation, the amount of time invested in said game, and my mental state.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:29 am 



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Japanese players have the possibility to watch other players in game centers and talk to each others . When I was in my teens, we had game centers in my country and I went there very often (not shmups, i thought they sucked :wink: but Mortal Kombat series and Killer instinct): and I learned to play by imitating people. When I was waiting for the guy to lose and leave the game, I killed time by simply watching and analyzing in a relaxed state of mind (under pressure you don't see certain things) and if the player was reasonably above my skill, I would copy ideas from him.
But now? There aren't anymore game centers here. I'm alone with an emulator, savestates and a couple superplays. But without advanced knowledge of the game you don't understand what is really happening in a superplay. You cannot figure out what is the part of improvised dodging/scheduled route/luck involved in any tricky part, and even if you understand what the ninja does, you still need a similar skill in order to perform the same trick. Watching the layman playing is, imho , an "active" way to watch a game, when I watch the same futobishi replay again and again, I'm mesmerized by the play until I eventually get in fact bored, and in neither case I actually learn something.
Probably, being able to watch many players playing the same game as you helps you to improve quicker.

Also, don't forget there are a LOT of arcade players in Japan, making the gaming environment highly selective. The dudes doing superplay are not average Joe.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:38 pm 


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nesrulz wrote:
After playing the newer CAVE games (MAMEUI), it is much easier to play DDP.

Good training.

Again...

After my three 1CC records with CAVE SH-3 games (Futari BL, DS MBL, and now DDP DFK 1.5), original DDP is very playable. I confirmed my record after first try, although there were a lot of stupid mistakes. When I find the time, it will be my next race for 1CC. Finally...
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:39 pm 


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@buttman
yes I have had the same experience too. Superplays by very good players are difficult to learn from. Everything happens just so fast. But replays of your average Joe are a much better way to learn a shmup, especially if you are new to the game in question. Unless of course the pro player was there explaining to you what's happening, in which case my experience has always been to watch the normal superplay first, and then move on to the high scorer. But tbh I hardly watch superplays, I only do so when I'm really stuck and can't figure a way out. I like to play and learn.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:56 am 



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Yes, I used to be able to observe at arcades as well. Really expedited time on learning a particular shmup.
Awesome thread, and I was looking for something like this here awhile back. Its a bit late but thanks for creating TLB-


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:19 am 


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One particular maneuver I've always found difficult is dodging really fast spread patterns, hell i'm not even sure what to call them. The kind Psykio bosses and the final boss of 19xx are fond of using. You can't macrododge bcause it covers the whole screen.

It's little tap dodges right? How do you train your reflexes/mind to deal with that shit?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:03 am 


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If its a static spread it depends, but in Psikyo I believe the aimed spread is more common. The trick is usually to figure out what parts have bullets aimed at you, and what parts of the attack have bullets aimed near you.

So, usually for me the hard part is knowing when NOT to move. If you just to a little tap, you can make it through some attacks, but others are designed to let you tap through a couple waves, only to tap right into a bullet in a following wave.

I don't think reflexes are key as much as familiarity. Psikyo games in particular are very hard to play on reflexes. Crazy spreads, instant lazers, and the like are going to kill you the first time you run into them.

I approach stuff like this very mechanically, so I'll load up a save state, tap the first wave... and if I die, I'll reload and NOT tap the first wave. If I die again, maybe two taps. Once something works, I'll do it... probably two dozen times with save states, to build some memory for it, and then move on to the next section of the boss. Once I find something that works for the 2nd wave, I'll play both the first and second parts back to back, probably another half dozen times.

I.... hope that makes sense, and maybe even helps a tad! :D

Edit: I didn't mention it, but of course watching replays helps too. Sometimes an attack seems ridiculous, even with a planned approach, but then you see someone make it look trivial in a replay by maybe moving to the side before the attack starts or something.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:25 am 


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mastermx wrote:
If I could ask SWY or TAC a question, I would probably ask them to see if they truly believe that their non savestating method is the best way to learn and what method they enjoy most.


from an old ikaruga thread:
Quote:
Regarding the completeness of the DC version, top score players WIZ and Yusemi said, "other than a slight difference in slowdown you can feel, it's a perfect port. It's great for making patterns and studying [for the arcade]. Practice mode is great for advancing your patterns, especially stage 4."


I guess that pretty much answers it?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:47 pm 


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The key is all in pattern recognition. How you get there is up to you. When you start to see the patterns, everything slows down and you feel like you have more time to make your movements.

Not that long ago I took a 6 month break from STGs and when I came back I found everything so much faster than I remembered. I played like a beginner. I almost thought something was wrong with me. But in a couple of days it all came back to me and it really taught me how it's not about reflexes and physical dexterity as it is about getting your mind to see as much of the pattern unfolding as possible. It's all about mental focus.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:52 am 


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I've had a change of heart regarding chapter select and save states. I think they are good for saving time and practicing your weak parts. I know in some games my run of the first 3 stages always go perfectly, but the 4th stage messes me up. It makes no sense to play the first 10mins over and over again just to lose at a pattern that you aren't used to.

There are some games that only let you practice a stage after you've beaten it in a run. This makes very little sense to me. The game "reflex" does this. The only way to practice that stage would then be to credit feed through it so that you can practice it in stage select mode. Does anyone else do this?

Also I've only recently heard that sdoj has missions that train you to master most aspects of the game. I've honestly never seen that in many shmups, but it sounds really awesome.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:36 pm 


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mastermx wrote:
There are some games that only let you practice a stage after you've beaten it in a run. This makes very little sense to me. The game "reflex" does this. The only way to practice that stage would then be to credit feed through it so that you can practice it in stage select mode. Does anyone else do this?

Mountain of Faith. Pretty annoying, especially since you actually can't just credit feed through. Unless you beat the boss, a new credit sets you at the beginning of the level. In a sense, this is a nice feature, because it allows you to keep practicing the last stage you're on, once you lose all your lives, so that you can instantly try to work out the details, but you've gotta play all the way there first.
mastermx wrote:
Also I've only recently heard that sdoj has missions that train you to master most aspects of the game. I've honestly never seen that in many shmups, but it sounds really awesome.

From others' accounts, it sounds like Jamestown might have something like this. Otherwise there's none that I know of. Sounds like a cool feature.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:40 pm 


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mastermx wrote:
It makes me wonder if arcade shmuppers would choose savestating if they could. If I could ask SWY or TAC a question, I would probably ask them to see if they truly believe that their non savestating method is the best way to learn and what method they enjoy most.


Seems like this ought to be common sense, but when the games come out in the game center, the only way to play them is to put money in. It's cheating if you can have more time with the game without having to pay. (By the time westerners played most of these games, the hype was already dead, ports were out, etc.)

interupt0 wrote:
Yes, I used to be able to observe at arcades as well. Really expedited time on learning a particular shmup.
Awesome thread, and I was looking for something like this here awhile back. Its a bit late but thanks for creating TLB-


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As an aside, I think it's probably noteworthy that it's always the same guys getting the most optimized scores in the fastest times. What might the reasons for this be? Obviously, they have developed techniques to work with the games in their mind. The simplest thing to try might be simply cataloging enemies in detail, then writing an ordered list of their appearances. You can add things like times, locations, background landmarks, etc. as you go and pretty soon you'll be fully familiar with the game, just like the pros. It's not as easy to work mentally with things like distances and speeds, especially if difficulty is variable during stages, but familiarity brings that over time.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:50 pm 


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TLB wrote:
As an aside, I think it's probably noteworthy that it's always the same guys getting the most optimized scores in the fastest times.


This has been baffling me recently. I've noticed some players can 1cc a game in a matter of days in stgts. Where as it would take me much longer than that to be so proficient in a shmup I wasn't familiar with.

Just look at the latest trap stgt. There are a few regular 1ccers. Could it be that they put even more time into the game than others. I think it's unlikely. I've heard about Japanese players performing amazing shmupping feats almost on reflex with games they've hardly played before.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:38 am 


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mastermx wrote:
This has been baffling me recently. I've noticed some players can 1cc a game in a matter of days in stgts. Where as it would take me much longer than that to be so proficient in a shmup I wasn't familiar with.

Just look at the latest trap stgt. There are a few regular 1ccers. Could it be that they put even more time into the game than others. I think it's unlikely. I've heard about Japanese players performing amazing shmupping feats almost on reflex with games they've hardly played before.


You're baffled that the best players on the forum are posting the best scores? I don't really follow your logic.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:24 pm 


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endoKarb wrote:
mastermx wrote:
This has been baffling me recently. I've noticed some players can 1cc a game in a matter of days in stgts. Where as it would take me much longer than that to be so proficient in a shmup I wasn't familiar with.

Just look at the latest trap stgt. There are a few regular 1ccers. Could it be that they put even more time into the game than others. I think it's unlikely. I've heard about Japanese players performing amazing shmupping feats almost on reflex with games they've hardly played before.


You're baffled that the best players on the forum are posting the best scores? I don't really follow your logic.


My comment was regarding the huge skill gap between stg players.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:55 pm 


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mastermx wrote:
My comment was regarding the huge skill gap between stg players.


It's just a side effect of the small player base, coupled with the innate difficulty of progressing past a beginner skill level in shmups. (games look/feel effing impossible at first)

not really surprising imho, but fascinating
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:56 pm 


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mastermx wrote:
Could it be that they put even more time into the game than others. I think it's unlikely.


Experience and endurance?

Better players are more versed and practiced in the skill of learning a shmup. They know what kind of practicing regime works for them, their minds are better at getting better.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:57 pm 



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Here's what I learned from this thread

Quality Practice makes Perfect.
Use as many continues as possible to get a feel for the game when practicing.
Pay plenty of attention when it comes to the stuff in the arena like shots, enemies, projectiles and more.
Use a good quality controller and not a broken or defective controller. (Believe me, I had purchased 2 Hyperkin Pixelart Controllers and while one didn't work, the other one did. I will be going to buy a replacement controller to give my friends a fair chance.)
Once you mastered a difficulty level, try a harder level for another challenge. (Start from an easy difficulty and work your way up.)
Come up with a plan for each level and boss.
Master the Power Up Systems that these games have.
Relax every now and again to loosen the tension.

That's all I learned so far. I hope to get a high score in this.


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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:19 pm 


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When should one stop savestate practice and actually do full credits? I feel like I'm constantly spamming save states but rarely doing full runs.

Another thing, full runs don't seem to reflect what I do in save-states. To give an example, I make silly mistakes in early parts of a STG. Is that reason enough to practice those sections again or should I just assume its nerves or something messing me up?
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 Post subject: Re: GD: How to practice shooting games
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:59 am 


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I like to move onto full runs when I've become confident I've reached all my goals in savestate practice, in terms of consistent performance.

I think your problems with the full run is nerves. You should try to think of every stage as the same as in practice mode, and attempt to forget that mentality "I am doing the real run now". Another thing is that it will be unavoidable that nerves and fatigue will always have some impact on the full run, causing the performance to drop a certain amount, which is why in practice, you should become consistent before attempting the true run, semi-negating the heightened failure chance.


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