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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:39 am 


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Immryr is spot on, which is why Super Metroid will always be its own self contained masterpiece, rather than lumped in among the masses of (otherwise great!) "metroidvania" games created by various indie developers nowadays.


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:05 am 


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Bananamatic wrote:
god hand


Mikami-directed games. Some initialized quite a leap in evolutionary terms, as well as they got out-dated.

Played recently through 4Revil after some ten years. Still not much into the campaign, since I find it too lengthy (*groan* the castle). But, by Rambo's Blue Light, every game in third-person since feasted on these motherly tits.
Vanquish infused high-velocity to the mechanics and up-dated it to more recent demands, but 4's Mercs is still a romp in execution.

I'm eager to check out P.N.03, which I missed till now. Somehow I don't think I'll end up disappointed.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:33 am 


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DaiOuJou
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:29 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
DaiOuJou


Having limited experience with the series what makes it the best?
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:12 pm 


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Stevens wrote:
Skykid wrote:
DaiOuJou


Having limited experience with the series what makes it the best?


It's the most perfect balance of sick, demeaning aggression and a euphoria akin to coasting on unbroken bullet-fueled orgasma when you finally learn to twist it to your gaming will. I think DOJ's hyper are the most accurate metaphor for shooting your bolt in all of videogamedom, not least because it's almost as pleasurable.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:38 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Daimakaimura is my ideal example of an action game combining lethal unpredictability, calculated stage design and cinematic flash in a concise package. It's a charismatic production full of iconic sights and clever setpieces, where to be complacent is to invite sudden, hideous death. I think anyone looking to design an arcade-styled action game (a single-sitting experience meant to be replayed many times in pursuit of mastery) would do well to clear its first loop.


I'd place Contra 3 alongside it, with Ninja Spirit falling slightly behind due to that nagging end-game issue.

On the same note, I'd add Capcom's Alien Vs Predator as the absolute apex of the beat em up genre. Fusing the same RNG fueled chaos mentioned above, with limitlessly deep movement and skullcrushing mechanics. It's very much a desert island game, one you could replay for thousands of years just for the fun of demolishing its unpredictable gauntlet as smoothly and efficiently as you can each time.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:18 am 


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Durandal wrote:
What are some games which execute something so perfectly to the point where you quite frankly shouldn't even be allowed to talk about it until you've played and thoroughly understood those games, and what would that something be? Be it minor things from how RNG, movement or enemy AI is handled, or major things like level design and visual hints. The game itself doesn't necessarily need to be good or perfect. Alternatively, you could also list games which end up doing something so poorly or with such wasted potential that they end up being the textbook example of how to not do things, but still end up being worth knowing about because of that.


nothing lol. sensible people will listen to what the big boys have toteach them anyway
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:47 pm 


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Immryr wrote:
The idea of not just gating progress behind item collection, but also your own skill is something that the games which came after SM seem to have completely ignored.

How about Toki Tori 2? I've no hardware to play it on, so right now I can only ask how tricky the execution is there compared to Super Metroid.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:15 pm 


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Giga Wing - how to implement shooting mechanics in a shmup. You can tap slowly to get a slow shot rate, or a slightly faster but still very relaxed tap speed (compared to most games) to get a maxed out firing rate. Shot speed can't be abused with a mechanical autofire to fire every frame (as you can with Darius Gaiden or Sine Mora), and the Dreamcast port adds a third button for rapid fire as a convenience which is greatly appreciated (and also would have been a plus to have in the original arcade game).

Any of the Touhou games with a slowdown button to focus shot - As much as I like CAVE's games, the Shot/Laser system doesn't allow you to slow down your movement without firing, and there are some scoring situations where you might want to stop firing while retaining focused move speed. A focus movement button or a system like Dangun Feveron/GG Aleste II where you have one movespeed you pick at the start of the game are both generally feel better to me than gear shift games where it can be a bit awkward trying to rapidly shift between speeds. Gear shift games like Eschatos or Pink Sweets really demand you memorize what speed to use where because trying to shift speeds on the fly doesn't work out as well as a 2 speed game with a focus button. Could just be me here though.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:08 am 


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In Eliminate Down, you select the ship's speed from pause menu (wouldn't be accepted in a coin-op game - I guess - making it inherently a console shmup). Console shmup-wise, there's a sub-family of those (starting with R-Type III, fully bloomed in R-Type Delta) built upon the foundation of controllers rich in more buttons than it used to be common during the previous generations of those devices. Indeed, R-Type Delta as well as Einhänder seem like two most serious attempts to cast the arcade skin off a shmup (to make it "next gen", speaking figuratively).
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:31 am 


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Despite being one of my favourite console horis, Eliminate Down mildly annoys me with that. I think they should've just gone with [speed] [shot] [switch] ala Thunder Forces III+IV. Maybe it's just me, but I find one-way weapon switching a lot less distracting in fast-paced games anyway. Even in stuff like Shin Contra where you can scroll both ways, I end up just memorising the number of taps to loop back around.

Then again, I'd have had Musha Aleste nix pause entirely and put speed control on start, with ABCS to pause as a concession (MA's speed control is like ED's, but it actually needs three action buttons for shot/special/formation). I don't like pausing my action games in general if it can be avoided, I suppose.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:47 am 


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BIL wrote:
I don't like pausing my action games in general if it can be avoided, I suppose.

Even Resident Evil 4?
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:05 am 


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The luggage minigame is far too good to drop (just one more pair of socks! cmooon dammit!) - but I would have been perfectly okay if the game kept running in the background while you rummaged about in the heat of battle. :3

Holy Diver (Famicom) is more the tempo I mean - proportionately, its magic select demands likely as much menu involvement as your average RE or MGS, and I think it'd have been genuinely improved if you could cycle in realtime. There's probably a 3D action equivalent, but I would say even the first Devil May Cry's pause menu feels less intrusive than Eliminate Down/Musha's speed switch.
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Last edited by BIL on Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:52 am 


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Obiwanshinobi wrote:
Immryr wrote:
The idea of not just gating progress behind item collection, but also your own skill is something that the games which came after SM seem to have completely ignored.

How about Toki Tori 2? I've no hardware to play it on, so right now I can only ask how tricky the execution is there compared to Super Metroid.


I haven't played it so I dunno. The first half of dark souls 1 definitely does it though, there are so many possible paths through it and you're only really gated by your skill in combat, especially if you take the master key.

Funnily enough, just like with SM, this element has been completely ignored by all the games which followed on from dark souls too, including its own sequels.


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:19 pm 


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Hmm. Preferred vanilla DS2's method to Scholar tbh. You can chuck yourself down that pit quite early on if you save up and buy the cat ring. The Rotten was my second Lord Soul on my blind play.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:00 pm 


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wat?


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:19 pm 


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Oh, just saying vanilla DS2 is a bit more open than 1. I guess that's quite off topic seeing as its not about skill gating so..
Ignore me haha.

Also, I suppose skill gating stops you going through the catacombs first in ds1. I've tried that and finally made it to pinwheel but i wouldn't recommend starting there at SL1, it was rather painful!
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:29 am 


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Spider Man 2 (Sam Raimi movie adaptation) and Saints Row: Gat Outta Hell.

Both otherwise below-average open world games that nevertheless are redeemed by having the most fun movement mechanics ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:12 am 



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Final Fight, pretty much the only beat 'em up I always return to along Tower of Doom :P
For single-plane ones TNWA is definitely a must too.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:19 am 


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And what about those immersive 3D Western RPGs like Skyrim and Fallout 4 (the only ones I've played, and loved)? Who made the first template game? Bethesda with Morrowind?


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:12 am 


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Super Mario Land. Not the hardest game out there, just good plain fun. Has shmup stages too! Especially good in hard mode, which isn't hard, but adds just enough new and changed enemies to up the tension and fun. It also gets the portable pick up and play vibe just right.


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:10 am 


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Leandro wrote:
And what about those immersive 3D Western RPGs like Skyrim and Fallout 4 (the only ones I've played, and loved)? Who made the first template game? Bethesda with Morrowind?


The Witcher III if hype is to be believed.

Having played Oblivion and Skyrim to death I'd say it's not them.
New Vegas would be a contender if it didn't have the usual amount of bugs.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:21 am 


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Leandro wrote:
Who made the first template game? Bethesda with Morrowind?


Depends on what you consider the "template". Does it have to be full 3D? Lots of western open world RPGs existed before Morrowind, such as the earlier Elder Scroll games. Darklands and Wasteland are some other early examples.

Blinge wrote:
The Witcher III if hype is to be believed.

Having played Oblivion and Skyrim to death I'd say it's not them.
New Vegas would be a contender if it didn't have the usual amount of bugs.


New Vegas is dry as hell, and the "open world" is as empty as it gets. :| Witcher 3 is definitely a huge improvement on the formula, that I really hope Bethesda decides to take some cues from.
That said, Zelda Breath of the Wild really puts all of them to shame with its sheer amount of breadth, content and constant sidetracking. It's the best example of proper open world design I've seen so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:31 am 


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Sumez wrote:
New Vegas is dry as hell, and the "open world" is as empty as it gets.


Well i'm tr-tr-triggered :x . Nah is good game yo, and I feel like it actually has a reason for its layout, factions quests etc.
I cba to argue but can't resist asking how much did you actually play?

Forgot about Botw though. Might even play that some day just don't wanna buy a switch.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:58 am 


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Leandro wrote:
And what about those immersive 3D Western RPGs like Skyrim and Fallout 4 (the only ones I've played, and loved)? Who made the first template game? Bethesda with Morrowind?

Gothic and Gothic II: NotR are a pinnacle in world design, featuring a small but dense with secrets and opportunities to explore. You can go anywhere in the overworld at any time when you're LV1 if you know what you are doing. The world isn't hard-gated with areas being locked off until you advance the plot (with the exception of some dungeons) or invisible walls. Higher-level monsters act as the gatekeepers so you are discouraged from entering areas the main quest isn't directing you towards yet, but if you're skilled enough you can still get by them. This freedom in exploration also translates to the quest design. One of the first quests in Gothic II has you get past the gate guards so you can get into a coastal city, and to do so you can either bribe them, pretend to work for an alchemist, or pretend to be a farmer by buying the clothes from a nearby farm after working there. Alternatively you can walk around the city walls and get into the city by jumping into the sea and swimming up to the city pier--one of the NPCs will remark on that!
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:33 am 


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Blinge wrote:
Leandro wrote:
And what about those immersive 3D Western RPGs like Skyrim and Fallout 4 (the only ones I've played, and loved)? Who made the first template game? Bethesda with Morrowind?


The Witcher III if hype is to be believed.

I forgot to say I also played Witcher 3, in fact I have logged 180 hours in it already and just finished the Blood and Wine expansion pack yesterday, which was amazing... I'd say it's a different type of game than the Bethesda games, that's why I actually forgot it's the same genre, lol. Much better story and narrative, but not a immersive world. I'll never forget the first few hours I played Skyrim. I'm sure another game did something like this before though...

Durandal's example of Gothic seems perfect, I get those Hexen II atmosphere vibes looking at the screenshots.


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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:59 am 



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Leandro wrote:
And what about those immersive 3D Western RPGs like Skyrim and Fallout 4 (the only ones I've played, and loved)? Who made the first template game? Bethesda with Morrowind?


There's most definitely a sliding scale to "open world design", but popular answers to the larger question of "what was the first open-world game?" include Ultima, Elite, Zelda, Hunter, Mercenary, and even GTA III.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:20 am 


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Outcast warrants mentioning, when speaking of 3D open world free roaming ones.

Tangentially, software bump mapping & anti-aliasing as well, just before consumer-grade hardware accelerators doing those out of the box saw daylight. Further at this tangent, Severance: Blade of Darkness did Silent Hill 2-style "shadow play" and DX8-style water reflections on at least one generation older accelerators, although I'm under impression Beyond Good & Evil does its water handsomely without hardware pixel or vertex shaders, too.

What TPP fighting games other than Die by the Sword and the original Bushido Blade did anything as novel as those with their combat? Interestingly, FPP hand-to-hand combat seems to have evolved more in games of recent decades. "Seems" as I still have no hardware to play Condemned: Criminal Origins, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic or Zeno Clash on it.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:10 pm 


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The trailblazer for 3d open world RPG's was Ultima 9. Fanboy and budget PC owners howled, but the core feeling of exploring a 3d world was there for: people that weren't too cheap or geeky to enjoy it. Shortcomings aside, it was a technical marvel.

Oh well, the same crowd is still complaining about Skyrim being "casual like Tomb Raider" and bitching about Zelda not being on rails. (Probably hugging lifesize Sailor Moon pillows at night, too.)

Speaking of Tomb Raider, what the heck happened there? There's an open world game I didn't want. Is anybody *really* having fun gunning down every person in sight and playing Dragon's Lair/Space Ace in every cutscene? A dozen little puzzle rooms is raiding tombs? WTF?

Come to think of it, 120 shrine puzzle rooms doesn't equal good dungeons. And, why can't I store my items if all my sh*t is going to break? Better than Skyrim? You're kidding me, right?

For general open world games, I'd argue that Ultima 2 was the first game with an in-game world that felt huge.

Moebius and Windwalker had their own interesting take on combat. Shallow by modern standards, but definitely unique. Windwalker had a refreshingly open world as well.
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 Post subject: Re: Essential plays
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:37 am 


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orange808 wrote:
Better than Skyrim? You're kidding me, right?

I like Skyrim well enough, but I honestly can't think of a single thing it does better than BotW.


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