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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:08 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:21 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
But I think it's really, really hard to argue that it takes 80-90% of its influence from Cave. With maybe 10-20% at most cribbed from a few other games Yotsubane liked

50-60% at most, and that's only because of the sheer amount of cave games there are and how they dominate the bullet hell subgenre that doesn't involve grazing, they used practically every possible reasonable mechanic at this point so you could argue that almost any bullet hell is a cave derivative now

extreme speedkill based scoring (I doubt most people even realize how many extra enemies the game has if you speedkill, it's in nearly every part of the game) is only in Feveron which is one of the least typical cave games out there, might be a bit close to raiden too, no other cave games reward you for speedkilling to such an extent

boss style is straight out of garegga/ibara (which isn't that far from garegga anyways) with tons of destructible parts that give lots of score

point blanking for higher overall value reminds me of mushi minus the chaining nonsense (rewarding all time spent in point blank, not just on kill like futari)

don't think any cave games did the rayforce style lock on

break mode (or hyper if you want) used as a temporary secondary multiplier instead of a hit booster is a thing only in saidaioujou (and danmaku unlimited 3)...which both came after crimzon clover

the artificial limit on break rate gain for separate stages so scoring longer stages doesn't award you with disproportionate amounts of score rendering the early game worthless in comparison is a completely new mechanic that would greatly improve some cave games (and hasn't been done before)

Squire Grooktook wrote:
I mean, by your logic, Esp Ra.De isn't a Cave style game because it has a few random spam patterns, a dumb sub weapon, and chargeable bombs. And I'm also referring primarily to normal mode. Unlimited is a bit of a different beast with its cancel system, admittedly.

they also threw all those things in the trash for galuda and galuda 2 and went to a more typical modern cave style (aerial enemies aim directly at you, ground enemies aim at fixed angles, bosses have fixed patterns and are slightly randomized by boss movement so it doesn't turn into psikyo, etc.)

don't think they ever did random spam patterns after guwange and rade either (DDP hibachi being a completely random spam TLB was also the last time they did that), that whole era was way more experimental, after doj onwards you got nothing but the typical cave style (which is what I imagine when someone mentions a cave ripoff, battle traverse is a good example)+the weird yagawa games that play nothing like the other cave games


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:27 pm 


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I don't see or feel it at all, but I can't (and don't want) to debate the minutia of it right now.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:31 pm 


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Now the topic is off-topic! :lol:
Seriously, just close it.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:28 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
I don't see or feel it at all, but I can't (and don't want) to debate the minutia of it right now.


Really?

I feel those double breaks in my balls. Glorious.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:42 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
I don't see or feel it at all, but I can't (and don't want) to debate the minutia of it right now.


Really?

I feel those double breaks in my balls. Glorious.


I meant I wasn't feeling the purported Cave mold breaking in the game. I maintain that the connection is very, very strong, down to the fundamental "feel" of the moving and shooting. It's a game made by a Cave superplayer, and I think it's clear that the game is a case of lifting influence from other sources and then placing it atop the Cave skeleton, rather than the other way around.

Yotsubane may have chosen a different flavor of icing, but the cake itself is from the DOJ/Ketsui bakery. Unless you're playing Unlimited/Boost.

I just don't have time to do the typical wall of text argumentation on that point.

Anyway, it's a great game though, don't get me wrong, not arguing that.
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:37 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Yotsubane may have chosen a different flavor of icing, but the cake itself is from the DOJ/Ketsui bakery.


The bullet styles, the way enemies attack, the way breaking works, the lock-on mechanic, the game may superficially look like Cave's style of shmup, but in terms of how the game plays and feels it's a fundamentally different experience. I'm just not buying the argument that it's "80-90% Cave". It feels far, far more frantic at times than even DOJ can get.

It's a bullet hell game, but it plays and feels way different to me than Cave's usual style of games. Much more fast-paced and intense.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:49 am 


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Well, like I said I simply have the exact opposite experience of the game. But then again, maybe my analysis is clouded because the game doesn't hook me for most of the same reasons that the majority of Cave games no longer do. *shrugs*
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RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:13 am 


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I love what this thread has become.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:23 pm 


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Crimson Clover initially looks like a late period Cave game in that it looks like a vomiting Christmas tree. But it plays nothing like one. Seems to have taken its inspiration from a lot of different doujin games instead. Never clicked with me unfortunately. Had a chance to play it in an arcade, but still didn't seem to fit even after playing more esoteric cave titles like Mushi 1.5 MAX and DFKBL right before.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:04 am 


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mushi 1.5 is about as esoteric as the contents of a toilet bowl


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