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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:29 am 


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wizkid wrote:
DoomsDave wrote:
Inglorious_B wrote:
I don't understand why you're getting worked up about it anyway unless you really want to promote Cuphead for some reason.

did promotion here ever help a game to sell?

Probably not, especially for a game that's already as well covered as Cuphead. If this forum is the only place you've seen Cuphead, chances are you're not the target audience anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:39 am 


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Cuphead is gonna sell well because of the graphics. No one is gonna care what people on this forum thinks. I believe 99% of people here are well aware of this, and also perfectly fine with things being this way. Is it fair that Cuphead is gonna be a much bigger success than Crimzon Clover? Probably not, but it's nothing new.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:44 am 


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Funnily enough, I have to move this thread to Off Topic because it's not even about the game (that's not even considered a shmup in this forum), it's a thread about a thread.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am 


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inb4 "Why move the why lock the cuphead thread thread".


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:02 am 


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Inglorious_B wrote:
Being an anal genre purist (especially when there are no new games that fit the supposedly 'pure' mould) just makes this forum seem irrelevant, and is not helping to make shooting games viable for developers.


there are lots of new games which are actual shmups......


Last edited by Immryr on Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:07 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:55 pm 



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Sumez wrote:
Cuphead is gonna sell well because of the graphics. No one is gonna care what people on this forum thinks. I believe 99% of people here are well aware of this, and also perfectly fine with things being this way. Is it fair that Cuphead is gonna be a much bigger success than Crimzon Clover? Probably not, but it's nothing new.

Eh, Crimzon Clover's overrated.

DoomsDave wrote:
inb4 "Why move the why lock the cuphead thread thread".

Rather, "Why lock the the why lock the cuphead thread?" This thread is pointless.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:03 pm 


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o.pwuaioc wrote:
This thread is pointless.

But it's fun


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:12 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:01 pm 


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Posting in an obvious troll topic!

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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:18 pm 


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Jeneki wrote:
Posting in an obvious troll topic!

Nah, i think he's pretty serious, which is even worse.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:48 pm 


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It honestly doesn't matter that he thinks platform run'n'gun games qualify as shmups. It's obvious that the genres have a lot of things in common, and usually share a good cross section of fans. What's absurd is the way he demands it to be lumped in alongside pure shmup titles which are very clearly outlined by the forum's set of definitions for a sub-forum called "shmup chat" :P


Last edited by Sumez on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:59 pm 


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Given the time he was posting, for someone in London, I'm just going to assume he was drinking late last night and had the liquid stones to come here spouting ridiculous stuff.
Mind you, from his post history, this isn't the first time he's shown discontent with the mods here.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:38 am 


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There are a few games where the shmup elements are a major enough part of the game play that they're often considered shmups or shmup hybrids. Examples include The Guardian Legend/Guardic Gaiden (made by a company known for shmups, a huge part of its gameplay are the shmup levels, it has a shmup only mode) and Sigma Star Saga (again, huge portion of its gameplay is spent shmupping).

Cuphead is not a shmup, nor does it appear to be even a hybrid shmup. It can only be called a shmup in the same sense that Gunstar Heroes is a shmup because it has one shmup level. As in, not really. It is a run 'n gun game closer to Contra or Metal Slug that happens to have an autoscrolling shmup level or two thrown in. Hence it is in Off-Topic (i.e. not a shmup).

Just because it's sorted into the Off Topic section isn't a bad thing; it just isn't a shmup. There are many other non-shmups threads that are very active in Off Topic, so it's not like some kind of conversational kiss of death or something.

Inglorious_B wrote:
If Metal Slug got made today then I think it should be allowed a thread in the main forum.


Metal Slug is a run 'n gun platformer. Not a shmup. Traditional shmups generally allow for full range of movement over the field, normally have autoscrolling, and don't have things such as platforming or gravity with very rare exceptions (Firepower 2000 when using the Jeep, Super Spy Hunter for the NES and its ramp jumps over instadeath pits).

If you're going to argue Metal Slug is a shmup you might as well argue Mega Man is a shmup. Or Castlevania is a shmup because you can throw daggers. (note: please don't do this)
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:30 am 


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Inglorious_B wrote:
If Metal Slug got made today then I think it should be allowed a thread in the main forum.

NG:DEV.TEAM's obviously Metal Slug-inspired "Kraut Buster" has a thread in the Off Topic subforum. (The thread did perfectly fine for itself, too.)
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:25 am 


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Members with less than 30 posts telling everyone how to run the forum :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:27 am 


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o.pwuaioc wrote:
Eh, Crimzon Clover's overrated.


I hear you brother, it did do well though because people like shiny plastic i guess.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:52 am 


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trap15 wrote:
Members with less than 30 posts telling everyone how to run the forum :lol:

Just 5 more posts and I can share all my wonderful ideas for this forum :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:13 am 


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Cee wrote:
I hear you brother, it did do well though because people like shiny plastic i guess.

Eh, it's fun to play, but I'm not gonna jump to its defense. It was just an example, so if you like another new'ish PC shmup better you can insert that into the sentence instead. I honestly can't think of a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:08 am 


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I think people liked Crimzon Clover a lot and hyped it a ton was because it's essentially an archetypal Cave style danmaku with polish, content, and presentation to match (and arguably exceed) a good chunk of Cave's own library (let alone most doujin productions).

That, and it was localized at a kind of turning point for western pc releases when a lot of previously unavailable stuff suddenly started showing up on steam/gog/etc.

For me, the problem with CC is the whole "Cave style" thing. Fuck Cave.

(Except Dangun and Guwange, those are cool)
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:33 am 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
For me, the problem with CC is the whole "Cave style" thing. Fuck Cave.

(Except Dangun and Guwange, those are cool)

crimzon clover really isn't cave style at all
the enemy/boss design/behavior doesn't resemble any cave game at all

enemy shots are aimed in a way more "general" way rather than at you, way more bonus enemies for speedkills, enemies shooting lasers or destructible missiles isn't even slightly cave (DFK is the only one that used them?)
bosses have destructible parts that don't have fixed value (cave games hate those), bombs working on the same resource as hypers, random spam patterns (TLB opener, stage 2 boss opener, cave avoids random spam like the plague), I could go on forever


Last edited by Bananamatic on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:39 am 


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CC is wonderful.

But why did you lock the Cuphead thread?
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:42 am 


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My only point is that, as unlikely as everyone knows it is, I would rather see Crimzon Clover representing a resurgence in the popularity of the shmup genre than something like Cuphead which, even if you pretend is the same genre, doesn't seem to understand what makes such a game good.

But Crimzon Clover is cool, we could discuss it in the Crimzon Clover thread :P I'm sorry that you don't like it Squire. I'm also kinda sorry that you like Guwange. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:10 pm 


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Guwange is wonderful.

What's wrong with you fuckers, why u no like shmups?
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:29 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:46 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
Squire Grooktook wrote:
For me, the problem with CC is the whole "Cave style" thing. Fuck Cave.

(Except Dangun and Guwange, those are cool)

crimzon clover really isn't cave style at all
the enemy/boss design/behavior doesn't resemble any cave game at all

enemy shots are aimed in a way more "general" way rather than at you, way more bonus enemies for speedkills, enemies shooting lasers or destructible missiles isn't even slightly cave (DFK is the only one that used them?)
bosses have destructible parts that don't have fixed value (cave games hate those), bombs working on the same resource as hypers, random spam patterns (TLB opener, stage 2 boss opener, cave avoids random spam like the plague), I could go on forever


We could argue this in depth, but to me those aren't really what defines Cave's style, in a general sense.

More about the general micro dodge focus, multiplier driven scoring (which are awarded for doing something weird, ie locking/chaining/whatever), lack of random patterns (2 patterns or more don't make a difference imo), similar style of zako waves and aimed shot patterns (the less exact aim is more of an early Cave thing IMO), and in general the way things "feel".

There are some flourishes (lasers, missiles, some more interesting boss movement, etc.) and tweaks (bomb/resource system) that Yotsubane worked in as part of his "ultimate shooting game", but at the end of the day the game is very much of the "archetypal danmaku" style that Cave exemplifies.

Sumez wrote:
But Crimzon Clover is cool, we could discuss it in the Crimzon Clover thread :P I'm sorry that you don't like it Squire.


Don't get me wrong! I don't dislike the game. Just have a hard time returning to it these days.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:08 pm 


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according to that definition, basically any bullet hell with a sensible scoring system and bullets that aren't garegga colored is either a cave style or a touhou style game (does it have grazing or not?)

CCWI breaks cave conventions in almost every way imaginable except for being a bullet hell with multipliers, yet people still call it a cave clone
especially unlimited is nothing like the expert/ultra modes in cave games, I can't really think of any game that plays similar to it


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:13 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
according to that definition, basically any bullet hell with a sensible scoring system and bullets that aren't garegga colored is either a cave style or a touhou style game (does it have grazing or not?)

CCWI breaks cave conventions in almost every way imaginable except for being a bullet hell with multipliers, yet people still call it a cave clone
especially unlimited is nothing like the expert/ultra modes in cave games, I can't really think of any game that plays similar to it


I mean, by your logic, Esp Ra.De isn't a Cave style game because it has a few random spam patterns, a dumb sub weapon, and chargeable bombs. And I'm also referring primarily to normal mode. Unlimited is a bit of a different beast with its cancel system, admittedly.

Everything you mentioned is kinda minuscule (boss parts have different score values, whoa...) and arguable (patterns don't feel different at all imo) compared to say, a Psikyo game where you do nothing but macro dodging and score via medals and weakpoints. Or a Raizing game with all its funky patterns and rank systems. Or a Takumi game. Or Taito. or Moss. Or Psyvariar or whatever. Even Touhou feels waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more different then CC stylistically, and that would be my other pick for "archetypal danmaku game".

I'm not saying CC is a clone, and I'm not saying it's a bad game. But I think it's really, really hard to argue that it takes 80-90% of its influence from Cave. With maybe 10-20% at most cribbed from a few other games Yotsubane liked.

I mean it was made by a Cave superplayer, what do you expect.
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Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:18 pm 


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very entertaining

Inglorious_B wrote:
And now you will have to lock every new thread on the game in Shmups Chat.

I can't imagine multiple new cuphead threads will be created in the shmups chat :roll:
And if another thread is even made I'm sure it will be from another new confused member.

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"Off-topic" isn't a garbage bin, rather it's probably my favourite part of this forum nowadays.

agreed 100%

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Bananamatic wrote:
enemies shooting lasers or destructible missiles isn't even slightly cave (DFK is the only one that used them?)

hmm, probably not to the extent of CC but dangun has that section of destructible missiles and muchi muchi pork has lasers too. pink sweets too? unless I'm not thinking of the same kind of shots (it's been awhile since I've played CC).
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Last edited by Some-Mist on Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:29 pm 


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I always figured CC (the original) was like a meh and horribly fugly CAVE clone, but with world Ignition I would say calling it a cave style isn't a stretch but it's not like it's a clone of anything else. it's definitel its own thing and the intent was clearly to make a kind of "best of" type of shmup, I guess Yotsubane took a lot of things that fits his preferences and then kinda mashed it all together. if it has to be compared to something, it's mostly going to be casve games. I also think world ignition improved greatly on the artstyle, though it is a bit subtle and it's obviously no cuphead, at least it doesn't give me eye cancer anymore, or at least not as much lol. art has never been a signifier of greatness to me, it's just something to appreciate on the side, and although the original CC went too far with its unattractiveness, CCWI is okay and its gameplay especially in boost mode makes up for everything, boost mode is legitimately awesome and puts most CAVE to shame and bosses don't really resemble cave bosses in any mode but i guess there's like a vague similarity idk.

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