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 Post subject: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:45 am 


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Why has my Cuphead thread been locked?

The last post made on it points out that there is another thread about the game in 'off topic' - is that supposed to be a reason?

Let's examine the logic of that shall we?

So you lock my thread in Shmups Chat and it drops out of sight in 24 hours. Now once again nobody knows there is a thread in 'off topic'. And now you will have to lock every new thread on the game in Shmups Chat.

Let's go a bit deeper though. This is a Microsoft exclusive shooting game that is getting healthy promotion from Microsoft and a lot of interest from gaming sites and influencers on the Internet. It is going to be a very popular shooting game that will be remembered for a long time. This is exactly the kind of title that should be front and centre of the Shmups forum, and nobody here should need to have that explained to them.

***There is no way that Cuphead is 'Off Topic' 2 months before its release***

So either unlock my thread, or merge the other thread onto it, or simply move the other thread to Shmups Chat and let people post on it there.

But to carry on locking threads on the game in Shmups Chat is just an embarrassment to this forum. Imagine if someone from Microsoft saw that. The company who resurrected the genre in the last generation and brought us all the Cave games.

They would think you lot are a joke.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:56 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:24 am 


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Cuphead is not a shmup, that's why it's in Off Topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:28 am 


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Hey there,

yes, the fact that there was an existing, MUCH older thread for the game is reason enough for locking a new one. We like to keep things tidy and organized, and having several threads for a single game makes it more difficult to find information (excluding Strategy section threads which operate differently), it's nice to keep the discussion focused and in one place. And this forum does not frown upon necroposting, quite the opposite.

As for why's it in Off Topic - because that's where it belongs. If you'll read the Board FAQ, you'll find that, and I quote: "On this forum Metal Slug, Rolling Thunder, Virtua Cop, and Rez are not considered shmups, though you are free to discuss these games and others in the Off-Topic section."

As for why I didn't merge the threads - there were only scant three short posts in the new thread, so I figured it wasn't necessary.

So that's that. Feel free to drum up excitement about Cuphead in the original thread.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:28 am 


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Inglorious_B wrote:
So you lock my thread in Shmups Chat and it drops out of sight in 24 hours. Now once again nobody knows there is a thread in 'off topic'.

Except, you know, people who can use the Search button. Creating a thread in Shmups Chat doesn't do anything to solve the problem you describe - it can still fall off the front page of threads if nobody posts in it for a while. On the flipside, if you participate in the existing thread in Off Topic, that'll bump it back up to the front page of Off Topic. There's no rule here against reviving old threads (provided it's not straight-up spam, of course).

From the forum rules:
Quote:
  • Keep posts to the appropriate topic areas. We will never have a concrete definition of a shmup, so make a sensible judgement.
  • Sticking to established threads on a subject is appreciated (even old ones), the search function and indexes where posted will help.


Whether or not you personally believe Cuphead is the savior of the shmup genre, if the memberbase generally disagrees that Cuphead is a "proper" shmup, the Cuphead thread is more usefully located in the Off Topic subforum. Sure, the game has shooting elements, but it's also got platforming and other elements that make it more accurately described as a run-and-gun. These same elements are also things that many people who frequent this forum are specifically not thinking of when they think of shmups. To have the Cuphead thread in Shmups Chat would dilute the usefulness of the subforum to such members, and the point of the forum is to be useful to its members. The point is not to be the arbiter of what is or isn't a shmup or what should or shouldn't be allowed to see success. We're not that powerful. If the success of Cuphead is your concern, then rest assured that Off Topic is just as active as Shmups Chat, and many games that this forum does not consider to be shmups, such as NieR:Automata, have gone on to do very well, critically and commercially, even among forum regulars.

And trust me, nobody at Microsoft or StudioMDHR could care less about what this forum does with a thread about Cuphead. shmups.system11.org is but a tiny blip that may or may not even register on their radar. Nobody there is going to shed a tear if this forum doesn't consider their game to fall within some specific genre definition and perform free advertising for them. In case you haven't noticed, "the company who resurrected the genre in the last generation and brought us all the Cave games" has since moved on and the PlayStation 4 has emerged as this console generation's front-runner for shmups. Not that shmups were a major sales driver even for the Xbox 360.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:44 am 


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Ghegs wrote:
As for why I didn't merge the threads - there were only scant three short posts in the new thread, so I figured it wasn't necessary.


Perhaps communicate it next time to the thread creator that and why you did it; saves more wasted thread space ;-)
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:46 am 


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Inglorious_B wrote:
Imagine if someone from Microsoft saw that. The company who resurrected the genre in the last generation and brought us all the Cave games.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:49 am 


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On a serious note, to the thread starter here. Why didn't you just post the thoughts you wanted to discuss in the already existing Cuphead thread? That would also bump the thread bringing it to the top, which solves your problem of the thread not being at the top 2 months before the game's release. No one here is trying to fight you, as Ghegs pointed out, they are just trying to keep their forum neat and organized <3


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:55 am 


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Erm...

So why is the Nex Machina thread still going strong in Shmups Chat?
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Last edited by Inglorious_B on Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:01 am 


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That's not "your" thread unless you're kid aphex. But anyway twin-stick shooters are somehow considered shmups some (most?) of the time. It, like all genre definitions, is somewhat arbitrary but generally agreed upon among those using the term with each other.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:06 am 


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Sumez wrote:
On a serious note, to the thread starter here. Why didn't you just post the thoughts you wanted to discuss in the already existing Cuphead thread? That would also bump the thread bringing it to the top, which solves your problem of the thread not being at the top 2 months before the game's release. No one here is trying to fight you, as Ghegs pointed out, they are just trying to keep their forum neat and organized <3


I appreciate the tone here dude.

I'm not posting anything about Cuphead in 'off topic' because I believe it's completely ON topic.

Shooting games like Nex Machina and Cuphead are premier titles that can bring interest back to shooting games. That will benefit everyone as it helps to create a viable marketplace for new titles.

Being an anal genre purist (especially when there are no new games that fit the supposedly 'pure' mould) just makes this forum seem irrelevant, and is not helping to make shooting games viable for developers.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:12 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
That's not "your" thread unless you're kid aphex. But anyway twin-stick shooters are somehow considered shmups some (most?) of the time. It, like all genre definitions, is somewhat arbitrary but generally agreed upon among those using the term with each other.


My bad I didn't post it >_<

My point here though is to ask what purpose it serves to split hairs when it comes to games like this?

There aren't hundreds of these kinds of games being made nowadays, especially not premium titles, so why relegate any of them to a secondary forum?
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:19 am 


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While you may see Cuphead as a shmup due to some of the elements it contains, by and large it is not considered one by the community here

Whether you think that thinking as much is a "disservice" to the genre or not is irrelevant, and frankly, making ANOTHER thread to bitch about the fact that your thread was locked isn't gonna help your argument, you could have just as well PMed a mod but no, you chose to whine publicly because.....somehow it makes you right?

Sorry but the entire reason for the existence of this thread is childish and petty, if you think we're all some kind of genre purists and don't want icky modern indie games clogging up our shit or something, then I dunno what I can say that would convince you otherwise

tl;dr Stop being a whiny asshole about petty shit


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:21 am 


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You're gonna be on edge with the typical forum users here. A lot of people have already seen enough of Cuphead to judge that the developers, though well meaning and ambitious, don't seem to have a great understanding of what separates good and bad games within this style of gameplay, and don't feel that a game like Cuphead is what is needed to bring classic action games back on the map. If you ask me, Nex Machina seems like a much safer bet for "revitalizing the genre".
I won't speak for anyone else, but I think the general concensus about Cuphead seems to be somewhere around "The graphics are great, but I don't have any hopes for the gameplay. However I will reserve judgement until the game is actually out and I get to see how the final version plays". Expect a lot more talk about the game here, once there's actually something decisive to discuss.

Also you're not going to change what this forum defines as a "shmup". Most other places will group together many different types of arcade'y action games with a focus on shooting and dodging because they are mostly niche games nowadays, but this is an entire forum dedicated to shmups, and as thus it's one of the few places that can actually afford a "purist" approach to the genre.
Don't read too much into that. It doesn't mean that most people don't appreciate action platformers, run 'n guns, rail shooters, etc. It's just that there are so many purebred shoot'em ups out there, that there's no reason to lump all other kinds of borderline genres in with them. "Off-topic" isn't a garbage bin, rather it's probably my favourite part of this forum nowadays.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:22 am 


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Lol, Cuphead a Shmup. Lol Microsoft "saved" the shmup genre. This is a joke thread right? (Checks calendar for April 1st...)
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:26 am 


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Sumez wrote:
"Off-topic" isn't a garbage bin, rather it's probably my favourite part of this forum nowadays.

Yeah, I personally don't frequent Off Topic, but by no means does a thread being categorized there mean it's unappreciated by forum members or that it's inferior to "proper" shmups. There are some non-shmups people talk about there that are probably more widely loved among forum members than most shmups...
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:28 am 


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drunkninja24 wrote:
While you may see Cuphead as a shmup due to some of the elements it contains, by and large it is not considered one by the community here

Whether you think that thinking as much is a "disservice" to the genre or not is irrelevant, and frankly, making ANOTHER thread to bitch about the fact that your thread was locked isn't gonna help your argument, you could have just as well PMed a mod but no, you chose to whine publicly because.....somehow it makes you right?

Sorry but the entire reason for the existence of this thread is childish and petty, if you think we're all some kind of genre purists and don't want icky modern indie games clogging up our shit or something, then I dunno what I can say that would convince you otherwise

tl;dr Stop being a whiny asshole about petty shit


Is this kind of offensive, ad hominem posting ok on the forum?

Am I ok to start talking to other members and mods like this?
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:33 am 


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opt2not wrote:
Lol, Cuphead a Shmup. Lol Microsoft "saved" the shmup genre. This is a joke thread right? (Checks calendar for April 1st...)


Oh, you must have been playing DFK on your PS3?
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:37 am 


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Frankly I think Touhou and the fervor around creating fanworks and other Touhou-style doujin shooters, like it or not, has done a lot more to keep the genre going than any single company has, CAVE included.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:38 am 


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I got called worse for posting something incorrect in a recent thread. Don't sweat it man. Just forget about it and move on. It's been explained to you why the thread was locked. You don't have to agree with it, but you will have to accept it.

This is a community that has been around for years. It's not your place to tell posters what to think.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:38 am 


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1. Microsoft didn't make DFK, and they didn't port it to Xbox360 either.
2. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean well, but right now you're spending more time criticizing how the forum works than actually discussing video games, so that makes it a little difficult for people to actually respect your criticism.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:52 am 


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Ok man.
Just because a game has a few shmup stages, doesn't categorize it solely as a shmup. By that account Super Mario Land could be argued the same way. No, Cuphead pays homage to multiple genres of games, with a sweet art style. I commend your passion, and I too am excited about the game's release, but know your audience. Stick around longer, get the ebb and flow of this place, be involved in conversations. Then perhaps a strong stance like yours would be accepted more as a point for discussion. Right now it sounds like you're lashing out based on some entitled attitude that your opinion is infallible.

For the record there is a lot more to the genre of shmup than Cave games. And I mainly play shmups on actual arcade pcb's, got rid of my PS3 after it Red ringed/light. Modern hardware wasn't made to last like the old tech.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:55 am 


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I'm not asking anyone to change their definitions.

I'm just saying that it wouldn't hurt to allow a bit of latitude these days given that there aren't a lot of shooting games being made.

Relegating Cuphead to off topic just makes this place seem anal and petty, especially when Nex Machina gets a pass.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:55 am 


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opt2not wrote:
Ok man.
Just because a game has a few shmup stages, doesn't categorize it solely as a shmup. By that account Super Mario Land could be argued the same way. No, Cuphead pays homage to multiple genres of games, with a sweet art style. I commend your passion, and I too am excited about the game's release, but know your audience. Stick around longer, get the ebb and flow of this place, be involved in conversations. Then perhaps a strong stance like yours would be accepted more as a point for discussion. Right now it sounds like you're lashing out based on some entitled attitude that your opinion is infallible.

For the record there is a lot more to the genre of shmup than Cave games. And I mainly play shmups on actual arcade pcb's, got rid of my PS3 after it Red ringed/light. Modern hardware wasn't made to last like the old tech.


Peak Shmups Forum.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:59 am 


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Are you actually for real?


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:35 am 


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Inglorious_B wrote:
Relegating Cuphead to off topic just makes this place seem anal and petty, especially when Nex Machina gets a pass.


I don't see how you can compare the two. Nex Machina is a twin stick and Cuphead is a Megaman style boss rush game. You have to be consistent, if you have a Cuphead thread in the shmups section then why not a Megaman thread or Metal Slug thread. I don't understand why you're getting worked up about it anyway unless you really want to promote Cuphead for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:04 am 


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Let me rephrase this to help people understand.

What is the BENEFIT of excluding Cuphead from the main forum?

For the record I personally think the TOS are out of date, given the dire state of the genre today. If Metal Slug got made today then I think it should be allowed a thread in the main forum.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:09 am 


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"Shmups chat" is just a subsection of this forum, just like Off-topic is. You're the one calling Shmups chat "the main forum". To other people, the sales forums, hardware, or hi-scores is where it's all at. Personally I've spent the most time in Off-topic. Explain to me why it matters?

Or rather, let me rephrase your question:
What is the BENEFIT of including Cuphead in the "shmups chat" forum?

Also, did you just call the forum FAQ a "TOS"?


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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:13 am 


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Cuphead isn't a shmup, it has shmup sequences. Why not post on the already existing topic in Off Topic? It's not like that section is the ass of the forum.
This situation is reminding me of that guy with the stealth plane avatar calling everyone here an old fart.

DoomsDave wrote:
unless you really want to promote Cuphead for some reason.

Wouldn't be the first.
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 Post subject: Re: Why lock the Cuphead thread?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:23 am 


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DoomsDave wrote:
Inglorious_B wrote:
I don't understand why you're getting worked up about it anyway unless you really want to promote Cuphead for some reason.

did promotion here ever help a game to sell?
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