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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:54 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
The weapon imbalance issues are only similar to arcade games we criticise for being badly structured, rather than those we accept as top tier.

What are the weapon balance issues, exactly? That every weapon is too strong? You can say that's a flaw, but what that does is let you approach the game in any way you want. You never need a specific weapon at any point because everything is so powerful. A certain level of freedom is good.

The default gun is more than capable of handling the stage portion of every mission without issue. It's only weak against bosses, which is not a problem.

Slow walk speed can be "fixed" with sprint + vault, tackle, dodge, ambush shot, and the air dash. Those mechanics exist for a reason.

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Uprising does so much wrong with its stage design, broken scoring, broken DLC characters and highly regrettable weaponry and obscene penalties

The only problem with the stage design is how they repeat layouts (with minor changes) a few too many times. That makes up for like, 5% of the game, if that. I'd take a bit of repetition over some awful corridor and top-down stages any day.
The game has broken scoring, sure. I don't think a run and gun exists that doesn't have atrocious scoring, so it's par for the course, unfortunately.
The DLC characters are all really good, since they fill different roles. Leviathan has more advanced mechanics for experts, Harley is a slow tank, and Sayuri is Strider. I'm sure you're talking about Sayuri here, and she is not a broken character. She just turns the game into Strider - a better Strider than Strider 1, 2, and Cannon Dancer fyi - and makes it easier as a result. And there's nothing wrong with that. No missing the game with her must still be pretty hard anyway, since so few people have the achievement.
"Regrettable weaponry and obscene penalties" - I don't know what you mean by either of those statements. All of the weapons are very strong, and the penalty for making a mistake in this game is anything but obscene. One flaw that you can mention is how easy the game is to 1cc because it has so many 1ups. The penalties should be harsher, if anything. :lol:

Skykid wrote:
Although I never hear anyone describe Uprising as a masterpiece, thankfully - which makes yours something of a closet case - it still amazes me that anyone holds the game in any regard whatsoever.

The game has a ton of fans. You're just not looking hard enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:36 pm 


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I used to really enjoy Uprising, a friend and I were in the top 10 leaderboard for arcade mode scores for a long time on PSN :D (I'm sure the scores are towards the bottom by now LOL)

Sure, the game has its annoyances....but I had fun with it and hoped for a sequel (that never happened) to fix it all. I agree that the weapons are too strong, I think maybe they assumed casual players wouldn't be able to hold onto them long enough to worry about balancing them.

Walk speed? All we ever did was sprint LOL.....all the dodge/vault/tackle/etc. mechanics made the game very fast paced if you wanted it to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:46 pm 


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The peashooter is a joke generally, coupled with Bahamut's walking speed, even more so. Relying on dashes and vaults is fine - but not for a run n' gun! It fundamentally alters the game into something NOT Contra. Lack of autofire here is basically poor design. Penalties include a single hit reducing your firepower Gradius style, which wouldn't be an issue if the peashooter wasn't the default and the weapon power ups weren't so scarce. The overpowered weaponry is generally horrible to use; I can only think of two satisfying potential weapons in the game and they're few and far between (as demonstrated in your superplay iirc) and losing them can be detrimental to survival in a fairly heinous way for a run 'n gun. Other penalties not related to weaponry are bad design decisions not limited to losing two health stocks for being interrupted during a vault. Stage design at its worst is scrappy and enemy placement haphazard. Sayuri is simply overpowered, which like Uprising mode smacks of compensation, and yes, the game is teeming with 1ups, which I'm convinced was an afterthought based on play testing and realising the deadline was nigh.

It's always worth noting that even if someone can make a game look good, that doesn't guarantee that it is.

I don't mind chatting with the fans, I just find them very rarely (which I consider a positive).
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:22 pm 


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Well number me among Uprising's fans, although I stuck exclusively to Uprising mode since the Arcade mode wasn't much fun at all. I never understood why people got so hung up on Arcade mode's faults when Uprising mode gives you a lot of flexibility to create the experience you want (level design flaws notwithstanding).

Is it because it was labelled "Arcade" mode, with the connotations of being the authentic and true experience that that label carries? I've always tried to resist that kind of rigidity and focus on what's most fun, like I would have as a kid playing games.


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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:46 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
coupled with Bahamut's walking speed, even more so. Relying on dashes and vaults is fine - but not for a run n' gun! It fundamentally alters the game into something NOT Contra.


I thought of something like this, and it's an interesting question.

I think it's fine for a run and gun shooter, and fine for Contra. I can appreciate that they tried to do something different with this spin off than repeat an inferior version of past games. And the movement mechanics themselves remind me quite a bit of Mega Man X, a series where I also adore the movement.

Dash vs walk speed, like in X, occasionally makes me pause for thought. In both titles, I do wish the default move speed was a little faster, as much as I love dashing. In both titles, you really do spend most of your time dashing, which is fun, but ideally a better balance between crazy fast movement and more precise movement would be ideal. Kinda like Cave's focus vs shot control scheme. Slow down for more precise action etc.

Still, I think it works well and is rewarding enough.

Like I said, opinions may vary on whether Uprising's high points compensate its low points, but I do really wish it had had a sequel. The fundamentals are really charming, and with the lowpoints excised, it could really be something special.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:44 am 


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I forget now if I am in a Contra thread or a Mighty No. 9 thread.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:51 am 


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Austin wrote:
I forget now if I am in a Contra thread or a Mighty No. 9 thread.

I think that people just don't want to be reminded that MN9 exists.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:18 am 


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One thing worth mentioning is that Inti did artwork for Shantae and the Pirates Curse and, if I remember correctly, some of the development for Shantae 1/2 Genie Hero. Most of Inti's good stuff had another company involved.

I like a few WayForward games quite a bit (both recent and not so recent), but most of their games based on licensed properties are weak and I didn't care for Mighty Milky Way too much. But they also made some killer games. It's also uncertain how much they lost when some developers left for Yacht Club (though Shantae 3 turned out extremely good), which only made one game, but one that is extremely good. That game, Shovel Knight, also had a successful expansion with Plague of Shadows, which plays differently from the main game and stands up well in its own right.

Mighty No. 9 sounds disappointing. I did get to see it in action and thought it looked much better than in stills, but it's disappointing it suffers from balance and other issues. Not sure why Inti-creates did the game in 3D either since they usually do games in 2D. One thing that puzzled me about Mighty No. 9 is all these other projects going on at once. First Azure Striker Gunvolt, which even had a sequel announced before Mighty No. 9's release, then that Kickstarter for a project resembling Mega Man Legends.


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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:47 am 


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It is impressive how thin Inafune et al. spread themselves over these years. It is almost as if they wanted to give us something "better than nothing."
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:27 am 


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Tregard wrote:
Well number me among Uprising's fans, although I stuck exclusively to Uprising mode since the Arcade mode wasn't much fun at all.


That's exactly what I like to hear from a fan.

Quote:
I never understood why people got so hung up on Arcade mode's faults when Uprising mode gives you a lot of flexibility to create the experience you want (level design flaws notwithstanding).

Is it because it was labelled "Arcade" mode, with the connotations of being the authentic and true experience that that label carries?


Pretty much. Series fans and veterans want an arcade mode in-theme with the other games. Uprising is a concession to the flawed finish of arcade mode IMO, and that's the main reason I won't give it time. It just lets you grind your way to features and weaponry that should have been default standards in arcade mode, but inexplicably aren't there.

EmperorIng wrote:
It is impressive how thin Inafune et al. spread themselves over these years. It is almost as if they wanted to give us something "better than nothing."


More like spread their crowdfunded millions thin. Looks like a lot of that bank went into people's pockets while the skeleton crew worked out a crude MM clone.

Just to note, I called this mess way back, right near the beginning of the thread. I checked out some of Inafune's mobile games in Japan and they cast a shadow of doubt that started to snowball. I'm really not surprised by the final product; it's exactly as I expected it to be.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:03 am 


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Damn, the Con Man thing is spreading like wildfire. Never again for Inafume. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:24 am 


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This is a competent platformer that rewards efficient score play, I'd stick it with games like Mega Man X8. There are just so many games already doing this same type of gameplay better at the present time. Nothing here that couldn't have been done in the PS2 era, and that's just not worth even the small-ish asking price.

I understand it's a huge disappointment, but once it's cheap, it's not complete trash. Kind of like Street Fighter 2010, only once you disregard what it's supposed to be can you begin to enjoy it, and even then you could be playing something else.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:12 am 


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Meanwhile in Twitter...

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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:16 am 


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copy-paster wrote:
Meanwhile in Twitter...

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https://twitter.com/pg_kamiya/status/249735186936369153
Remember this one?
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:03 pm 


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Just saw a stream for a brief moment. The voice acting is god awful. Did they just pull people off the damn street?

I honestly wanted this to be good, but I guess it was not to be.

The music and character design aren't too bad, in my opinion, but literally everything else about it is just... how much money was poured into this game, anyway?
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:15 pm 


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http://kotaku.com/mighty-no-9-s-designe ... 1782382706
Quote:
Inafune-san said “You know, I want to word this in a way to explain some of the issues that come with trying to make a game of this size on different platforms.” He’s like “I’m kind of loath to say this because it’s going to sound like an excuse and I don’t want to make any excuses. I own all the problems that came with this game and if you want to hurl insults at me, it’s totally my fault. I’m the key creator. I will own that responsibility.”

At least it's better than the time when he threw the entire Lost Planet 2 team under the bus.

Quote:
“In my many years at Capcom, and Capcom was known for their multi-platform strategy. But never did they ever do 10 SKUs all at the same time, 10 different versions all for one title.” Traditionally, this is true—I know, we worked with a lot of different porting houses—usually you have the base game and work on the port after the game was done. In this case, it was do the base game and do the port all at the same time. it ended up being a huge amount of work, more than they actually estimated. Definitely, when they looked at the project, they were wrong about a lot of things. They underestimated how much time, work was going to be necessary. All of those things create a huge amount of pressure.

Make 10 versions of the game at once, another brilliant Inafune business strategy pays off.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:51 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
It fundamentally alters the game into something NOT Contra.


I agree with you on this, but I still found the game fun.....just as it's own thing.

Tregard wrote:
Well number me among Uprising's fans, although I stuck exclusively to Uprising mode since the Arcade mode wasn't much fun at all. I never understood why people got so hung up on Arcade mode's faults when Uprising mode gives you a lot of flexibility to create the experience you want (level design flaws notwithstanding).

Is it because it was labelled "Arcade" mode, with the connotations of being the authentic and true experience that that label carries? I've always tried to resist that kind of rigidity and focus on what's most fun, like I would have as a kid playing games.


I always used uprising mode as a training tool. I could learn patterns, memorise things, and get used to the game mechanics without having the same sort of penalties involved with arcade mode. Once I got good at the game (which took time) I stopped playing uprising mode all together.

Shepardus wrote:
I think that people just don't want to be reminded that MN9 exists.


You can count me in on that statement. I was really excited about MN9 when it was first announced....but enough time has passed where my excitement has faded.

Sorry to contribute so much to hijacking the thread with talk of a different game, carry on! I want MN9 to be great, but I'm reserving judgement until I see the game on a store shelf. I really enjoyed MM9 & 10 (especially 9), and I hope MN9 can at least hold a candle to it's heritage.


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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:07 pm 


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Full on banter.

Picture doesn't include the buyers remorse of everyone who fell for this scam.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:48 pm 


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Scam is pretty harsh. It's not a scam, it's just a failure. You make it sound like their intention was to rob people, when it was actually incompetence. One is very different from the other.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:08 pm 


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The less people played the thing, the more names they have to call it. Looks like there will be a day tomorrow after all.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:30 pm 


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szycag wrote:
I understand it's a huge disappointment, but once it's cheap, it's not complete trash. Kind of like Street Fighter 2010, only once you disregard what it's supposed to be can you begin to enjoy it, and even then you could be playing something else.

This makes me believe you legitimately haven't given 2010SF a solid shot and figured it out. Because once you actually figure it out, it's one of the best platformers on the FC. I highly doubt the same could be said of MN9 at any point.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:49 pm 


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szycag wrote:
Kind of like Street Fighter 2010, only once you disregard what it's supposed to be can you begin to enjoy it, and even then you could be playing something else.


What is the fuck! :shock: Nothing else plays like SF2010. Tactical sidescrolling combat + boss rush safari forever unseen elsewhere.

Spoiler: show
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You don't disregard what it's supposed to be, you disregard what you wanted it to be. :cool:

This topic is gonna bring out all the sidescrolling jimmies, isn't it? :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:52 pm 


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It's more a compliment to MN9 than taking SF2010 down a notch. I'm saying the game is merely GOOD, and you have to ignore the incompetence of all the fuckups like the game bricking systems, unlock codes getting mixed up, gripes about voice acting and the interface, and just start playing the game, to begin to see that. It's when you have to start to wonder where $4mil really went when you start to think GOOD isn't good enough, and the constant barrage of the gaming media makes that harder.

Regarding SF2010, you could be playing Shatterhand or one of the Power Blades. Well, you could!
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:56 pm 


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I'd rather play 2010SF, to be honest! At least over Power Blade.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:56 pm 


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Shatterhand/SORUBRAIN is more like Batman tbh. Artfully heavy wall leaping + face punching in industrial terror zones. 2010SF is like Alien Soldier's arena safari concept with a 2D fighter's punishing emphasis on timing and spacing.

Ah anyway, as long as nobody's playing the AVGN "wahh is hard" card on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:03 am 


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Played a bit of MN9 today and ended up uninstalling it shortly after... I thought that the critics were just too harsh on it but no, I'd say that they were too kind. Horrendous level design, completely uninspired bosses, the list goes on. The dash mechanic (along with the combo system) could have had some potential but it just falls flat due to how unpolished it feels. Perhaps it's just me but Inafune is wrong, "nothing" would have been better than this. On Friday I will play through MM 2, 3 and 5 and drink plenty of whiskey to wash away any memory of playing this crap.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:16 am 


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I picked up a copy today. The hate bandwagon was so large I had to try it for myself to see if the general gaming public was mostly being retarded, or if the game really was legitimately "bad". I went in with zero expectations, played it for about three hours, and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's not sheer perfection, but I'd give it a solid 7.5 for the price, tagged with a, "It's a hell of a lot better than anything from Mega Man X5 and on" sub-notation.

It clearly takes after the X games and I think that's a good thing. It's fast with its unlimited dashing and it's a game that feels the most satisfying when played quickly. Bosses no longer have invincibility frames between hits, so you can mash quickly to do damage fast, making the fights much faster paced than in the previous Mega Man games.

The stages are a mix of types which I found interesting. Some focus more around traditional platforming, others are more flat and seem to be built more around combos, some have more environmental hazards than others (comprising with a lot of purple/pink beams, insta-kill objects that basically replace the spikes from the Mega Man games). The movement feels good. I can't think of too many standout moments in the level design itself, but it was fun regardless and that's what matters to me.

Graphics aren't going to win any awards, but it looks solid still on my HD TV (YouTube vids are a bad way to judge it). Voice acting is obviously a point of contention, but fortunately it can be muted completely in the options menu, or changed to Japanese. Cutscenes aren't mandatory like they are in many Mega Man games and can be skipped right from the beginning. That's a win in my book.

I think peoples' expectations were too damn high for this thing. If it came out as a regular release, not having been funded on Kickstarter, I think people would be enjoying it for what it is. I think the baggage that has come along with it is clouding a lot of peoples' judgement. Oh well, it is what it is. At the very least, this gives the Bloodstained team something to learn from. So far that Kickstarter seems to be going so much more smoothly.

BTW BIL, thanks to your gifs, now I want to play Street Fighter 2010. I might fire that up on the Power Pak this weekend, thanks. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:31 am 


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God speed! If it's any help, I chronicled my own getting to grips with it here. ^__^

It's a very unwelcoming game, for both good (big guns, big penalties) and ill (overly chunky control)... but I'll always recommend it as one worth persevering with. Once you get the decidedly non-twitch movement down, it offers a wealth of tactical, varied and highly volatile action. A 1LC can never be taken for granted, makes me feel like a goddamn Space Kenshiro every time. One of the most valuable sidescrolling action games I've found across the entire JP console canon.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:57 am 


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BIL wrote:
God speed! If it's any help, I chronicled my own getting to grips with it here. ^__^

It's a very unwelcoming game, for both good (big guns, big penalties) and ill (overly chunky control)... but I'll always recommend it as one worth persevering with. Once you get the decidedly non-twitch movement down, it offers a wealth of tactical, varied and highly volatile action. A 1LC can never be taken for granted, makes me feel like a goddamn Space Kenshiro every time. One of the most valuable sidescrolling action games I've found across the entire JP console canon.


Yeah, I remember you talking about it in that thread a long time ago. When I give it a shot, I'll post my thoughts on it there. Based on what I have seen I don't think I'll have too much trouble with it if I put the time and effort in. Should be fun.
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 Post subject: Re: Kickstarter: Inafune Mega Man-esque game(Mighty No. 9)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am 


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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 5936
Location: UK
I keep on seeing people (elsewhere) calling it a 'scam'. It seems like people really don't understand what Kickstarter is, and how it works.

If I had any artistic ability, I would draw a picture of a burning train full of people with pitchforks, crashing into a salt mountain.

Reading the reviews, it's not even that bad.
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