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 Post subject: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:12 pm 


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Marble wrote:
Huzzah, the best 2D action game ever now has its own thread.


You heard the man. Image To avoid splintering the Makaimura Miscellanies topic, here's a topic for its Ninja Gaiden offshoot, and sidescrolling action in general. Single-screeners like Bubble Bobble are cool too, as are flipscreeners like MSX2 Akumajou Dracula. It's all about the lateral-viewed action bub!

To assist newcomers to the NG trilogy, here are some useful replays:

Ninja Gaiden

Marble wrote:
Superplays to watch include bubufubu's No Subweapon 1LC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzT_gy6G ... w&index=23
bubufubu's 1-Hit Run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcGrfJlC ... w&index=24
and the current WR speed run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1hUIMMtlpo


Plus Marble's Shadow Warriors no-miss

Austin wrote:
Here is a longplay I did of the game a couple of years ago. It's not a perfect run by any means, but I do manage to complete it without dying, and it shows my general play style. I like to flow my way through the game as much as I can, mowing as many enemies down with jump-slashes as possible to keep my movement going: http://youtu.be/JU-q7caaxZo (maybe mute it if you want, this is a full commentary video).


>> Squire Grooktook's fully annotated no-miss ALL, with all cinematics included! ITS POPCORN TYME

>> Vanguard's one life clear

>> FinalBaton's No Miss
FinalBaton wrote:
Here is my run of Ninja Gaiden

No death. No hit until stage 4-3. No firewheel used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sDYTy_mV2o


>> SKYe's Subweaponless+Itemless 1CC and the sequel:

>> SKYe's Subweaponless+Itemless 1LC!

And here's the NG1 no-miss run I said I'd record. It's relatively sloppy, because I'm lazy ROFL. However, this may actually be useful by demonstrating not only how to avoid sticky situations but how to escape them. Despite the slack playstyle everything demonstrated is rooted in skill as opposed to good fortune. I should know, I play NG screwily all the time. What do you think this is, kid? SAIGO NO NINDO?

Ninja Gaiden II

>My equally bullshit Ninja Gaiden II no-miss! (with cutscenes by request - ITS POPCORN TYME once again!)

>And my marginally less bullshit no-miss sans cutscenes! DROP THE POPCORN YOU FUCK

Ninja Gaiden III

pegboy wrote:
Ninja Gaiden you say? I did a (sloppy) no-death run of Ninja Gaiden III: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJPQ4M8IXY4


Volteccer_Jack wrote:
Ninja Gaiden III no miss clear (without invincible fire wheel)

Never recorded a run like this before, so if I look nervous and jittery as fuck, it's because I am. The reason I don't skip the final boss cutscenes immediately is that I'm trying to stop my hands shaking! Totally winging it for Act 3 boss and 5-1, first half of Act 6 is hella sloppy but worked out well. Thanks to sucky recording, my awesome MLG windmill shurikens in Act 7 are invisible. You can't tell from the video, but that first shuriken in 7-2B doesn't come out at all, which frustratingly made me get hit. In general I was rushing too much and taking too much damage, I end the game with 40 seconds to spare.


^^^ holy shit, NGIII Act VII sans firewheel! :O

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If you have had your ass kicked in by these games - take heart! Practice and you too will join the NINJA RYUKENDEN TASK FORCE. THESE BRAVE SOULS HAVE TAKEN ON THE JAQUIO AND HIS ARMY OF SAVAGE BIRDS, AND WON :shock:

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Last edited by BIL on Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:15 pm, edited 84 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:33 am 


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Nice replay. Never played any NG, but I will definitely pick this up sometime, looks very fun from your replay. Definitely looks purely skill based if you have knowledge on the game.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:40 am 


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Thanks! This is certainly among my favourite action sidescrollers, any generation... pretty much my gold standard. It takes Castlevania's methodical style and speeds everything up without becoming any looser or less punishing. I never tire of the sense of explosive impact, both when striking and being struck.

Thanks for the confirmation the replay worked too, I'm never entirely sure with these things.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:16 am 


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Fantastic video. You're really good at this game :o Some crazy subweapon skills going on in Act IV!

I have to wonder though, how were you doing those speedkills on the bosses? I know about the jumping down+b for no-wait slashing, but what you did seemed a bit unreal :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:21 am 


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It's honestly just a matter of jumping and hitting B while rubbing up on the boss - the jumpslash subweapon will tear them apart like you're pointblanking Raiden II's twin walkers at 30hz autofire with full vulcans and missiles. For speedruns it's mandatory to keep it for the whole run, but I can't be bothered to memorise the whole game to play that way - the other weapons are too fun! Also, I love connecting perfectly with the sword for that "THWACK" sound.

The times when I stop advancing I'm either scratching my nose or being extra careful when hitting a candle because I still haven't memorised what's in it after twenty-odd years. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:25 am 


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How timely, I've been playing a lot of NES platformers lately... and most all of them, good or bad, make me long for Ninja Gaiden. I just love the combination of memo+improv in that game. Some of the enemy programming, like the swooping birds, really highlight that imo. Its like you can hard memo them and execute a perfect speed-run, but if you screw up, the game still gives you a legit chance to right yourself. A fucked-up-but-successful run of a given sequence can feel a little different each time.

Not to derail the thread, but are there any other 8/16/32bit games you feel come close to NG?
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:40 am 


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From the Makaimura topic...

BIL wrote:
edit: WHOA, I'd assumed Acts I-III were locked down! Edmond you're playing terribly, bad timing and missed hits everywhere. You cleaved the thin air above that machete dude's head clean apart in 2-2. You had better not be DrTrouserPlank's alternate account. :/ I can only imagine what horror awaits in Acts IV-VI! Seriously, I wouldn't like this game like I do if it let you get away with the mistakes you seem to think aren't that big a deal. Not getting smacked for that stuff would be unacceptable. What do you think this is, TIME COP for the SUPER NINTENDO?!

Just work on your timing and general accuracy and the stuff you've highlighted in those vids won't happen. I get hit quite a few times in the safer areas of my run (part 1 going up now), know why? BECAUSE I DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT :O Any time getting hit means death, I don't get hit.

Bomberhead can indeed be killed without taking damage, just get in range, let him whiff his attack, slash him repeatedly and back up. Repeat a couple times.


Mind explaining exactly how I'm playing terribly? Considering I managed to get through Acts 1-5 without dying (I think I might've died once in Act 5) I have to consider this pretty good.

EDIT: nvm, just realized you left comments in the links.

Almost finished uploading acts 4-6, and will check out your playthru as soon as I've finished uploading mine.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:51 am 


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blackoak wrote:
Not to derail the thread, but are there any other 8/16/32bit games you feel come close to NG?


Oh no, don't worry about derailing - I only made this topic to avoid breaking up Skykid's Makaimura thread, it'll work fine as a general hardcore sidescrolling action topic.

There are a lot of melee-centric sidescrollers I've played that I'd say are comparable in quality to NG, but so far none have matched its particularly explosive feel - the collision, animation and sound effects are a perfect storm of visceral satisfaction, the level designs are fastidiously absent of dead time, and the brisk scrolling speed is pitch-perfect. Most of my other favourites tend to be slower or more complex in some way that adds depth but takes away from the simple pleasure of hurtling through perilous environments cutting down all in your path. Even NGII and NGIII, though excellent, don't quite have that purity for me.

Off the top of my head, here's a few picks I think are worth bringing up in NG discussion:

Vampire Killer (MD) faster, leaner take on traditional Dracula with quicker pacing, meaty combat and beefed-up subweapons. So basically it's closer to NG than its own series. It gives me a similar feeling to the FC NGs, fast pacing, fun weapons, great presentation - another big favourite of mine.

Batman (FC) great walljump mechanic, level designs that'll demand you master it, rocking soundtrack and brilliantly grimy art direction - one of those emphatic exceptions to the "licensed games suck" rule. Quality Japanese hardcore.

Holy Diver (FC) Irem's punishing Dracula-style action platformer starring a projectile-wielding player character. Plays like Sypha from Castlevania III got her own game, quality and very tough stages to battle through. edit feb 2016: though it's sadly beset with some nasty technical flaws...

Shatterhand aka Solbrain, Dragon Fighter & Kage aka Shadow of the Ninja (FC) Natsume sidescrollers on the FC are always worth trying for their fundamentally rock-solid and attractively presented action.

Saigo no Nindo aka Ninja Spirit (AC/PCE) deliberately floaty yet mortally intense action with a range of great weapons, relentless danger and progressively more brutal Irem memoriser design. Harrowing yet a blast to play.

Hagane (SFC) ultra-maneuverable ninja sidescroller, seriously quality game on par with the MD's Super Shinobis - the main character is simply a joy to move around. Awesome cyber-feudal art direction by Keita Amemiya, punchy sound+explosion effects and levels that nail a balance of theatrics and quality design.

Strider 2 (AC/PS1) technically dog-eared with unappealing polygonal backdrops, but the hyper-responsive controls, fast-moving ninja action and some incredible setpieces make this a strong favourite of mine. Hiryuu's moveset is a streamlined yet emphatic leap beyond the original game's. At times it's like the controls are wired to my brain, diving and sliding about shredding all in sight. The aerial shredding command barrage is NG1 jump slash-satisying. The "hyper mode" sucks but IIRC you lose ranks for using it - at any rate I never bother with it anyway, it's never needed.

Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru (SS) infamously rare and expensive, and also really goddamn good sidescroller in Treasure bossrush style with a unique, gratifyingly explosive attack method. You're encouraged to dance around enemies evading their attacks readying your charge shot, then unleash it in a chain-lightning cataclysm of explosively rupturing bodies. Think "Scanner Ninja." I own this game without remorse or regret. :lol:

Playing badly (ignoring the charge + chain shot mechanic) results in this misguided impression - rest assured this game is the furthest thing from unbalanced (enemies deliberately wind up before attacking, and you have a free shield that can block anything and will shove away baddies to boot). Pay your dues with evasive action while charging and you'll rip enemies apart by the screenload.

Edmond Dantes wrote:
Mind explaining exactly how I'm playing terribly? Considering I managed to get through Acts 1-5 without dying (I think I might've died once in Act 5) I have to consider this pretty good.


Your accuracy and timing need work. You're basically off by the same split-second or few pixels every time - that's all. I can't change that, only point it out and assure you I wouldn't lie about it being fixable with a little refinement.

edit: hang on...

Edmond Dantes wrote:
Mind explaining exactly how I'm playing terribly?


I did! Read the post! :O
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:51 am 


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So, here's all the parts of my playthru I've uploaded so far (including Acts 1-3, which were already posted in the Makaimura topic)

Act 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEZORaSRmAE

Bil, you assume I'm "mashing" the D-Pad. I'm simply pressing left and jump. Like I do in most games when I want to jump to the left.

When I play King of Fighters on my PSP, I have no problems pulling off special moves--even the really complicated ones. So I'm not sloppy with a D-Pad.

Act 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OemdlhqWyIM

I'll admit getting hit twice by the dog might've been because I lost my cool a bit and tend to be in a "get thru the stage" mode rather than stopping and deliberating (a pattern in part encouraged by how enemies respawn).

Act 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr60gmYb1RI

Rudra, thanks for the tip about the boss. I'll keep that in mind next time.

Bil, the thing is, normally I have no problem taking that guy out, so it seems odd to me that suddenly I had an issue with it.

Act 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJjEDtJGDio

This one'll be new to ya'll.

Act 5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADaZ6tnvxHY

As will this one.

Apparently, I spent 30 minutes tackling Act 6... probably because its where I finally lost my lives and used several continues. I did manage to beat Ken Hayabusa. As for Jaquio, first time I was in over my head and kinda scrambled. I decided to play again even though being sent back to stage 6-1 is fucking bullshit, and on the rematch I thought I saw a pattern I could exploit... but I guess because I was losing my temper at this point, I botched it, and I wasn't willing to go through all that again.

Seriously, say what you want about my skills, but there is no way you can argue that replaying all of act six just for dying on the boss is fair in any way, shape or form.

Anyway, Act 6 is uploading now. Had to break it into three parts due to Youtube's time constraints.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:55 am 


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Watch mah replay son. :cool:

Edmond Dantes wrote:
Bil, the thing is, normally I have no problem taking that guy out, so it seems odd to me that suddenly I had an issue with it.


That time you screwed up. That's all. If you wait that long to attack out of the air you'll land before the hit frames are out, cancel the attack and have a live enemy on your hands. Either attack earlier or land and attack then.

And to be fair, you ran into the poor chump. Dressed like that he must've been really cold too.

I already told you, I don't care about the game's restart policies - no point bringing those up with me. You need to calm down and practice. Watch my Jaquio vid for what happens when you give in to a "MOTHERFUCKER I'LL KILL YOU!" reaction after getting smacked instead of staying cool.

edit: Hey, also: mentally framing this as a last-ditch all-out effort isn't how I'd do things. Just relax and observe, don't create an imaginary deadline for yourself. You're at an early stage where you've not got the engine or level layouts down cold - don't rush the process, it'll sink in eventually.

The ending is making me a little sad. ;-; Appreciate your dad, guys. Assuming he's not a despicable monster or anything.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:06 am 


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BIL wrote:
Saigo no Nindo aka Ninja Spirit (AC/PCE) deliberately floaty yet mortally intense action with a range of great weapons, relentless danger and progressively more brutal Irem memoriser design. Harrowing yet a blast to play.


Wow, didn't know about this one. Gave it a try on MAME and it's amazing. I can see what you mean with the brutal IREM difficulty (that damn spear guy under the ground!), but the weapon system, the abundance of bullets (which you can cancel with your slashes) and amazing graphics for a 1988 game hooked me really fast. Seems like you need to be quick or get raped by the swarms of enemies.

One can always trust your fine taste when it comes to recommendations.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:07 am 


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Hagane wrote:
One can always trust your fine taste when it comes to recommendations.


:oops: Thanks dude - I've learned a lot about the hobby from this community so I like to contribute back what I can. Glad you're liking Ninja Spirit, it's a hell of a game!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:14 am 


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BIL wrote:
I already told you, I don't care about the game's restart policies - no point bringing those up with me.


While I respect all your other wisdom so far, this rubs me the wrong way.

If you're gonna argue that the game is fair and I just suck at it, then don't turn around and tell me "well I just don't care about the unfair parts." That's bullshit. Like if I said "I don't care about memorization." You wouldn't let that fly, would you?

EDIT: And yes, Ninja Spirit is awesome.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:20 am 


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Edmond Dantes wrote:
If you're gonna argue that the game is fair and I just suck at it, then don't turn around and tell me "well I just don't care about the unfair parts." That's bullshit.


When I say the game is fair, I'm referring to the way it plays. The engine, collision, level layouts, etc etc.

I'm not referring to how it handles a dead player - I don't have a problem with how it does things, but even if I did I'd just make sure I did better next time. So I'm not being a hypocrite when I say don't care.

Also, the boss rush knockback's cruelty is overrated. You get a brand new lifebar for each boss. None are all that complicated, and none are instant killers. Do better next time.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:28 am 


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Fairness to me means that, as long as you do everything correctly, you can beat the game. If everything comes down to skill and not some random occurrence, it's OK. You might not like the harsh checkpoints, but the truth is that if you play the game well, they don't really matter.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] discussion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:45 am 


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BIL wrote:
recommendations

Nice, I look forward to trying these. Some I've played in the past but don't remember clearly. Totally agree about NG's pacing and level design... "fastidious" is a good word to describe it. I really like how NG allows you to speed through everything too. I appreciate precision platformers like Chippoke Ralph when they're well made, but I mostly want to be able to blaze through a level on instinct+memo.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:52 am 


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Hagane wrote:
Fairness to me means that, as long as you do everything correctly, you can beat the game. If everything comes down to skill and not some random occurrence, it's OK.


Exactly. There is no bad hand to be dealt in this game. You'll never receive an inherently unwinnable run, ever.

At the same time, a lapse of precision or concentration can very easily kill you. I'd guess 9/10 times I can no-miss it, but it never feels like something I can take for granted. That's model action game design in my book.

Edit: Also, Edmond, I'm honestly not trying to antagonise or belittle you here, but:

Edmond Dantes wrote:
I'll admit getting hit twice by the dog might've been because I lost my cool a bit and tend to be in a "get thru the stage" mode rather than stopping and deliberating (a pattern in part encouraged by how enemies respawn).


As I said here, the game's respawning is better dealt with by not rushing ahead. The whole AVGN "endless stream of eagles invading the screen" thing is a myth. Nothing's coming after you, nothing's going to sneak up behind you, the spawning and respawning of enemies is entirely controlled by you. Once you realise that the myth promptly explodes.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:11 am 


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or implodes, as it may be

I have to admit that NG didn't really grab me when I played it, but NG2 and 3 seemed like interesting new takes on the idea. I'll go mess with the trilogy (individually, I mean, not that messed-up failure compilation) and see what I think now.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:12 am 


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BIL wrote:
Also, the boss rush knockback's cruelty is overrated. You get a brand new lifebar for each boss. None are all that complicated, and none are instant killers. Do better next time.


Actually, the "new lifebar" is only sorta-true. If you die on the boss and make it for a rematch... you have to fight with however much health you had when you reached the boss room.

Hagane wrote:
Fairness to me means that, as long as you do everything correctly, you can beat the game. If everything comes down to skill and not some random occurrence, it's OK. You might not like the harsh checkpoints, but the truth is that if you play the game well, they don't really matter.


The problem with this (and BIL's similar argument) is that it assumes I, the player, already know what is "playing the game well" and that the only goal anyone could have is a 1-life run. I don't and it isn't. I don't know about you, but I'm not precognitive. That's why a thing called "practice" exists.

The way the game is, the only way I get a chance to practice is if I use emulators and savestates. On a real cartridge, how the fuck am I supposed to figure out Jaquio's pattern, develop a strategy, get a feel etc. if I'm only in his chamber for, say, one minute before a fluke gets me killed and I suddenly have to spend ten minutes replaying the last couple of stages? Besides that, there's fatique to consider. Naturally, such restart points are just gonna tire and frustrate the fuck out of me, which hampers my performance.

So yes, harsh restart points ARE unfair. As unfair as telling a third-grader he has to pass an advanced calculus exam or else he gets sent back to kindergarten. Jaquio isn't hard because he's hard--he's hard entirely because I don't get enough of a look at him and the game is pressuring me to do it right the first time.

(Besides, some of us are interested in that storyline the game has, and there is no bigger cocktease than not being able to see its conclusion just because we're not effing psychic. I'd especially like to see the third one all the way thru because it seems like the most interesting of the trilogy, but if they're all this fucknubulous...)
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:18 am 


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Edmond Dantes wrote:
BIL wrote:
Also, the boss rush knockback's cruelty is overrated. You get a brand new lifebar for each boss. None are all that complicated, and none are instant killers. Do better next time.


Actually, the "new lifebar" is only sorta-true. If you die on the boss and make it for a rematch... you have to fight with however much health you had when you reached the boss room.

I have the distinct impression BIL mentioned this earlier - he's talking about the whole boss rush, not just that part of it.

Anyway, 20 years of replayability woot. I weep for the children, but we're not children anymore :)


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:30 am 


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Ed Oscuro wrote:
or implodes, as it may be

I have to admit that NG didn't really grab me when I played it, but NG2 and 3 seemed like interesting new takes on the idea. I'll go mess with the trilogy (individually, I mean, not that messed-up failure compilation) and see what I think now.


Oldschool Dracula at 2x the speed with 10x the explosion, and despite lacking stairs, 150% hateability. :cool: NGII is definitely the friendliest of the series, and possibly the most entertaining as far as destructive power and neat level gimmicks go - try that one first, the first and third are more reserved and harder (well... JP NGIII was actually deliberately made easier, US NGIII is deliberately savagely hard. Great choice, SUPEREASY or SUPERHARD)

Edmond Dantes wrote:
Actually, the "new lifebar" is only sorta-true. If you die on the boss and make it for a rematch... you have to fight with however much health you had when you reached the boss room.


So learn to reach the boss room with a full lifebar or near it. You can also fall back on the jumpslash in this instance and instant-kill whatever boss is giving you trouble.

Quote:
The problem with this (and BIL's similar argument) is that it assumes I, the player, already know what is "playing the game well" and that the only goal anyone could have is a 1-life run. I don't and it isn't. I don't know about you, but I'm not precognitive. That's why a thing called "practice" exists.


Completely wrong. You obviously don't know how to play the game well. You're in the process of learning to. Inexperience will inevitably get you killed along the way, if it didn't the game would be utterly lacking in substance. But at no point will you fail because of "unfairness," only your own errors. There's nothing unforeseeable or unavoidable in this game, no matter your experience level.

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The way the game is, the only way I get a chance to practice is if I use emulators and savestates. On a real cartridge, how the fuck am I supposed to figure out Jaquio's pattern, develop a strategy, get a feel etc. if I'm only in his chamber for, say, one minute before a fluke gets me killed and I suddenly have to spend ten minutes replaying the last couple of stages? Besides that, there's fatique to consider. Naturally, such restart points are just gonna tire and frustrate the fuck out of me, which hampers my performance.

So yes, harsh restart points ARE unfair. As unfair as telling a third-grader he has to pass an advanced calculus exam or else he gets sent back to kindergarten.


Get better. It's harsh, overly punitive maybe. It's not "unfair" to penalise you for your failure. You screwed up, this game's a right cunt about that, deal with it.

Quote:
Jaquio isn't hard because he's hard--he's hard entirely because I don't get enough of a look at him and the game is pressuring me to do it right the first time.


Wrong. Jaquio's a threat even knowing his behaviour inside-out. Watch my replay, I handle him flawlessly until one stupid decision - an attempt to lash out at him after taking a meaningless hit instead of regrouping - ends up wiping out half my lifebar.

And frankly you must be absolutely flailing to die so quickly without even getting some inkling of why, some knowledge to build on. He has all of one attack. Evaluate and try something else, it sounds like you're taking the DrTrouserPlank approach of attempting to melt videogame obstacles with white-hot rage. It doesn't work. Do you have any idea of the temperature a mask ROM is soldered to a PCB at? You'll never be that hot.

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(Besides, some of us are interested in that storyline the game has, and there is no bigger cocktease than not being able to see its conclusion just because we're not effing psychic. I'd especially like to see the third one all the way thru because it seems like the most interesting of the trilogy, but if they're all this fucknubulous...)


They're not games for casual consumption - that's why they're so good. When your mistakes lead not to improvement but blinding by rage, THE FUCKNUB IS YOU BRO. :[ Seriously, youtube the cutscenes if you're hating the games that much. It's not BIOHAZARD 2 on the SONY PLAYSTATION.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:31 am 


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I should start playing these again. I remember getting to the boss rush on the first one a long time ago. Holy Diver looks pretty rad, I've never heard about it before.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:56 am 


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IMO, if a hard game is truly "fair" it should be possible for a theoretical "perfect" player to clear it on his first attempt, blind, and without taking any damage.

Now, obviously there's no such thing as a perfect player, so the vast majority of us will need to memorize and learn the game a bit in order to have a reasonable chance of beating it.

This post is totally off topic but yeah.

Anyway, Jaquio is bad but he's not that bad. Just use persistence and patience and you're bound to get the jump on him at least once.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:19 am 


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Okay, final bit of my playthru. This time I cut the commentary short because frankly, I was getting bored, and there were only so many times I could write "GRRRRR" before it became redundant.

Act 6, part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ioqplKgN-4

Act 6, part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obatwzm2FcQ

Act 6, part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOhiBZFaBFk

That being said, I'm tired of this discussion. I thought I might give the game another go if somebody could convince me it was worthwhile, but so far all I'm hearing basically amounts to "just get better, then you won't die." Which is about as useful as walking up to a depressed man and saying all their problems will go away if they just smile.

I'm getting a strong feeling of fan myopia. BIL has been saying "nothing is unforseeable or unavoidable"... but he forgets that this is true only for him, and only because he has decades of experience. I highly doubt he or anyone else literally foresaw and prepared for every single danger in the game on their first try. No offense, but I notice this with hardcore gamers a lot--like last year I met a Silent Hill fan who got onto me for missing the red gunk in the hospital, even though it was my first playthru and I wasn't using a FAQ. I highly doubt this guy saved Cybil on his first play either.

And then there's the strange concept of what's "fair" the hardcore of this forum seem to have. It's "fair" to force a player to play long stretches of game if they die at the very end--not even use a continue, just die. If that's fair, then I'm curious what you guys think of Last Battle on the Sega Genesis, which literally gives you no continues, no saves or passwords, and just one life--you die, you start the entire game over, it doesn't matter how far you got. I'm tempted to also mention Superman 64, but that might be hitting below the belt. I get that there's an underlying belief that this is supposed to somehow make me better at those levels, but to be honest, the truth is the exact opposite. This very forum hosts a strategy guide that endorses using savestates to practice, after all, so I know you all know this.

I'm not against difficult games, as long as they're fair. Makaimura is fair. Gradius is fair. R-Type is fair. Most Irem games are fair. Most Capcom games are fair. Ninja Gaiden is only challenging because it's blatantly unfair.

Well, gonna go watch BIL's playthru now. Let's see if that enlightens me.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:30 pm 


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Huzzah, the best 2D action game ever now has it's own thread.

Superplays to watch include bubufubu's No Subweapon 1LC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzT_gy6G ... w&index=23
bubufubu's 1-Hit Run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcGrfJlC ... w&index=24
and the current WR speed run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1hUIMMtlpo

Quoting myself from the Makaimura thread since this is the NR thread, if anyone's curious about the changes in the PAL version, Shadow Warriors.
Marble wrote:
BIL wrote:
Had no idea there was an engine change in PAL.

Yes, just one, but it's extremely insignificant. The jump arc is altered so Ryu moves greater distances, and I also think it moves faster in comparison to the enemies. I've played a fair bit of all versions (though PAL the most because I prefer playing on a console) so I'll explain some practical examples of the differences in the PAL version using my own play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcA-f7dFjp4

The commando enemies who start following at 2:50 cannot be outrun in NR, you actually have to turn around and slash them. This doesn't really add any challenge, it's just interesting.

At 7:35 I jump right onto the ladder. In NR, you have to land on the ground, kill the enemy then climb the ladder. It might actually be possible to land on the ladder in NR, but a lot lower, so in reality you'll always hit the enemy.

There's a pit at 14:07 that I get over the normal way, by jumping on the above platform. But you can just kill the enemy below and jump straight across. This is possible in a few pits in 6-2 and 6-3 if I recall correctly, but I never do it because you could miss out on good subweapon stock. However, it's probably the reason that a lot of SDA runners played the PAL version for a long time.

Another interesting thing about NR (all versions) is that while it's a pretty memorization based game, all projectiles with looping arcs are extremely random. After playing the game so many times, I'm sure that the exact arc of the projectiles, how many are thrown, the time between the next one - all these things are completely random. BIL, I totally love that every thread where we quote each other turns into a NR thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:02 pm 



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Have you played the original Castlevania, Edmond? While I think Ninja Gaiden's an amazing game, it's not quite as good as the title it copied from.

On other ninja slashy games, adding Zero to Mega Man X4 added that style as an alternative to X's shooting.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:51 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
IMO, if a hard game is truly "fair" it should be possible for a theoretical "perfect" player to clear it on his first attempt, blind, and without taking any damage.


Well, that's NG1. Find me one example where the game will kill you out of sheer, unavoidable cheapness and not because you reacted inappropriately to something.

Edmond Dantes wrote:
That being said, I'm tired of this discussion. I thought I might give the game another go if somebody could convince me it was worthwhile, but so far all I'm hearing basically amounts to "just get better, then you won't die." Which is about as useful as walking up to a depressed man and saying all their problems will go away if they just smile.


Facile, worthless analogy. A valid one would be telling the depressed guy to identify what's depressing him and take steps to mitigate or solve those issues. This is a useful thought process in many areas of the human experience.

Quote:
I'm getting a strong feeling of fan myopia. BIL has been saying "nothing is unforseeable or unavoidable"... but he forgets that this is true only for him, and only because he has decades of experience. I highly doubt he or anyone else literally foresaw and prepared for every single danger in the game on their first try. No offense, but I notice this with hardcore gamers a lot--like last year I met a Silent Hill fan who got onto me for missing the red gunk in the hospital, even though it was my first playthru and I wasn't using a FAQ. I highly doubt this guy saved Cybil on his first play either.


Wrong, and patronising but I won't hold that against you (see below). You're assuming I've dedicated two-thirds of my life to playing this game. In reality I played it on-off as a kid for scrubby "clears" then ignored it through the last couple generations until in 2012, after a little trepidation I experienced a revelation about hardcore action sidescrolling. I'm not sure I ever no-missed NG1 or NG2 until the last year. Still haven't done NG3.

Point is, there's no myopia here. If I thought NG1 or any other game I own was lacking in some way I'd point it out. Search my post history for "Alisia Dragoon" to see me regularly slate this expensive, beloved piece of my collection for its amateurish control problems. I'm as objective as lunatic fringe hardcore gamers come.

And I'm a huge Silent Hill (KCET) fan! Watch me tear the Gamespot review of SH2 to shreds here. Another facile analogy from you with the Aglaophotis, and that guy was a dumbass for giving you hard time about missing it. Everyone does. It's the theoretical NG equivalent of not picking up a unique, worthless "bagel" subweapon in 2-2 then getting the bad ending because you didn't rub it on the Demon's forehead.

Quote:
And then there's the strange concept of what's "fair" the hardcore of this forum seem to have. It's "fair" to force a player to play long stretches of game if they die at the very end--not even use a continue, just die. If that's fair, then I'm curious what you guys think of Last Battle on the Sega Genesis, which literally gives you no continues, no saves or passwords, and just one life--you die, you start the entire game over, it doesn't matter how far you got. I'm tempted to also mention Superman 64, but that might be hitting below the belt. I get that there's an underlying belief that this is supposed to somehow make me better at those levels, but to be honest, the truth is the exact opposite. This very forum hosts a strategy guide that endorses using savestates to practice, after all, so I know you all know this.


There's nothing to discuss. The game designers set a rule, we players can either deal with it, cheat, or move on. As long as you're not losing unfairly, what the game does with your battered corpse is none of my concern.

"This forum" is not a hivemind. Here's what I think about savestates. MD Hokuto no Ken sounds like a bitch, but I've never been compelled to play it so I can't comment. I know Ruldra likes it and he's awesome so I might give it a shot sometime.

Bringing up Superman 64 after linking to HG101 earlier makes me think you're a bit of a noob, and just need to toughen up and work on your learning processes. :/ If anyone's the resident X-Multiply fan here, btw, it's saucykobold.

Quote:
I'm not against difficult games, as long as they're fair. Makaimura is fair. Gradius is fair. R-Type is fair. Most Irem games are fair. Most Capcom games are fair. Ninja Gaiden is only challenging because it's blatantly unfair.


Sorry, what a load of rubbish. NG1 is by far the least cruel game of all those you mention. Go clear Makaimura then return to NG1.

What you're saying is you can take any amount of beatings, humiliations and tortures as long as you don't get sent back a few levels after your failure - but if a game does that, holy shit, warpath time. That's a personality issue you'll have to resolve on your own, there's literally nothing to discuss.

Quote:
Well, gonna go watch BIL's playthru now. Let's see if that enlightens me.


Work on your timing and accuracy, Edmond!
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Last edited by BIL on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:07 pm 



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Someone doesn't like a game I do?!?! The kid gloves are off. Time to make fun of his sig line.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:09 pm 


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The NES action-platformer is one of my top three favorite genres so it's quite sad that I haven't dedicated the proper time to beat any of the Ninja Gaiden games, especially since all three Famicom titles have graced my shelf for a quite a few years now. Perhaps I'll try and take this thread as motivation.

I absolutely love the NES Batman and have beaten that one, at least. One of the best looking games on the system, as well. Looking at my boxes I see a few more great representations of the genre that certainly deserve to be mentioned...

2010 Street Fighter. A bit unorthodox, but quite excellent.

Captain Saver aka. Power Blade 2.

Gun-Dec aka. Vice: Project Doom, which is so much inspired by the NG games that I'm quite positive BIL loves it.

Holy Diver, which was already mentioned but deserves another nod. Damn hard.

Jigoku Gokuraku Maru aka. Kabuki Quantum Fighter. Every metalhead's dream game, defeat enemies by headbanging.

Kid Dracula. It's closer to Mega Man than to Castlevania, the way the main character gets new powers after defeating bosses and how the stages are a bit more wild, but quite good. I was actually working on speedrunning the game some years ago, but was distracted by something shiny.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Action Sidescroller Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:12 pm 


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This reminds me about that time that I thought CV: Bloodlines was a stiff game and didn't understand the love for it; either that, or I just sucked and was upset in result of sucking. Such insight into one's gaming soul almost always proves that you suck, and yeah, you should probably practice more. Games can be hard, but understanding and overcoming the difficulty makes the experience so much more worthwhile and appreciative.

I still haven't beaten NG. I haven't beaten it because I suck and haven't tried to get better. But I understand that, and someday I will grow up and grow wings and become beautiful, and I WILL try--and I will beat it. But for now I will provide encouragement and procrastination while I should be writing an essay.
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