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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:04 pm 



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BIL, any experience with the Master System port of Double Dragon?
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:11 pm 


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Nope! Been meaning to check it out - "reprogrammed game by Sega" always piques my interest, plus it got a nice Mark III JP release. I have a long and troubled relationship with the MKIII library, but I'm always looking for that second game to accompany Kenseiden. :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:45 pm 



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When it comes to SMS, "reprogrammed by Sega" most likely means "licensed by Sega and reprogrammed by the cheapest subcontractor they could find" but in the case of Double Dragon, it may have been a Natsume job--they did Renegade and a few things for Taito including Sagaia, but I don't remember if Double Dragon was by them.

(Speaking of Natsume, Wild Guns Reloaded came out on Steam today--if you didn't get it on PS4, get it now, you won't be disappointed.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:37 am 



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BIL wrote:
Nope! Been meaning to check it out - "reprogrammed game by Sega" always piques my interest, plus it got a nice Mark III JP release. I have a long and troubled relationship with the MKIII library, but I'm always looking for that second game to accompany Kenseiden. :wink:


R-Type SMS, Aleste SMS, Power Strike II, and Final Bubble Bobble are all well-liked here, so I'm surprised you haven't picked up one of those yet.

And I'm surprised to see GDRI listing Natsume as the developers of Renegade and Sagaia on the Master System, as those ports don't seem to have the best reputation. Then again, people are still figuring out which PAL-exclusive Master System titles are actually PAL-optimized, which certainly doesn't help those titles.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:54 am 


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SMS Power has a lot of this stuff. Double Dragon was Technos:

http://www.smspower.org/Games/DoubleDragon-SMS

SMS Sagaia is indeed Natsume. The only bad words I've seen against it were magazine reviewers at the time - who were generally harsh on shoot 'em ups because they were bored of them. It's a bloody impressive port, though there's slowdown on a few bosses and flicker when it gets hectic.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:14 am 


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BIL wrote:
Loving the FC Kunio loop 3 revenge, with detailed notes too! Will be referring to those and your earlier posts before long.

Coincidentally I've been revisiting Technos' FC canon myself. I've a great fondness for Technos, the FC, and Technos on FC, but for years I've been content with their superlatively great DDII. First stop was longterm missing link Double Dragon, whose playability really surprised me. For sure, it's got a bizarre experimental bent, some harsh technical shortcomings, and even a few outright crash bugs... no match for 1988's other iconic FC port, the masterful Contra. But as a brawler it's surprisingly well-done, and entirely better than popular misconceptions suggest.

The Double Dragon Dojo wrote:
One thing that is instantly noticeable about this version is its poor combat system. Basically, enemies don't get stunned. So while you're unleashing your barrage of punches and kicks, the other guy is fighting right back. This causes players to lose quite a bit of energy when they shouldn't, and it proves to be a serious problem for those who choose to take Abobo head-on.


Romhacking.net wrote:
Double Dragon is a beat ‘em up game for the NES. A lot of people really like this game, but I honestly find it quite frustrating and poorly executed. The main issue is that you get hit completely uncontrollably. A well designed game can be beaten without taking a hit, but in this game, you will be hit as you’re hitting other enemies, which is really dumb.


The Dojo's a cool site I enjoy browsing, but on such sentiments and hazy childhood memories, I recalled the game's combat being an absolute shitshow of button mashing and random knockdowns (or alternatively, whiffing safe, weak jumpkicks ad nauseam). Turns out it's yet more misinformation born of poor play! IT KEEPS HAPPENING. 3: You should not be mashing, or getting hit without deliberate gambling, at all in DD1FC. Pardon as I indulge in a bit of low-hanging fruit, for time's a tad short lately. ¦3


I played this game, a bit before you (and Kitten) recommended DD2, and I find it to be a mostly nice game. Still haven't 1CCed it, though. :lol:

I find it kinda sad that people say that this game is poorly executed and has poor combat system/aggressive enemies, as the FC games (and the Game Boy port of the first game, at least) are much easier in this respect, compared to the arcade original and its more 'proper' ports (like the Master System and the MD ports).

Much like you say (regarding the most standard enemies) as long as you kick/punch at the proper distance, you'll destroy them, no problem.

Even enemies that throw knives & dynamite, will only do so once (the dynamite guys can pick up their thrown dynamite, if you give them the opportunity, though), so you only need to bait them into throwing their stuff, and you're golden. This baiting also works nicely for enemies carrying boxes and oil drums.

Also, against enemies carrying bats (which are very annoying, if you try to punch/kick them) can be knocked down consistently (and lose their weapon) by a jump kick. They won't duck, like they usually do.

One glitch (technique :lol: ) you can do, but I'm not sure you're aware, is this:
Do you know when all the weapons on screen disappear, after you beat that particular group of enemies?
If you pickup one such weapon (or *the* weapon, as there's usually just one) just as it is about to disappear, then, sometimes you'll hold a weapon (a different one, though) when you shouldn't be able to.
I say *sometimes*, because most of the time, the weapon you picked up will just glitch for a second, and disappear afterwards.
It's not terribly useful, but interesting nonetheless. :mrgreen:

Anyway, it's a perfectly playable game, though I do dislike some parts of it.

BIL wrote:
Pretty nice huh? I love pointblanking mechanics. "YE ME 2 LMAO, BUT W/ABOUT ABOBO, HE RLY STRONG AN HE FITE U RLY BAD" Yes he'll kill you in seconds at range, but again - not a problem! He's vulnerable to the same zoning as Chin. Jumpkick into safe range - if he ducks, all the better - and kick the shit out of him.


I like (and will use) this Abobo's strategy, as I usually just tried to jump kick them until they were dead, but given the rate at which they avoid those attacks, it was a bit of a gamble, especially against the 2 Abobo's on stage 2.

BIL wrote:
Oh, the wall. I figured out on my own that
...
Unscathed every time and ready to whoop some Chins. It's silly but eh. If it were a total lottery I'd probably have passed up the game, glad it wasn't. I love Technos, they goofy but heartful and their pain sounds/faces are unbeatable.


I also didn't know this, thanks for the info.
This is one of the areas of the game (and the other ports) that really pisses me off. 8)

Another area I consider cheap/annoying, is the stalactites section of the 3rd(?) level, which in this port (at least to me) seem completely random. Sometimes I'll be able to go past them, no problem, but other times, I'll get hit by one, and often will also get hit by some others, since they continue to fall, and will do damage as soon as you're getting up. Thankfully, this section is short.

The platforming section right after is yet another annoyance. :roll:

But even them, compared to the arcade original, it's pretty tame, as on that game, the walls' protrusions will kill you in 2 hits, and so will the spears section right after.

I believe that it is important to notice that many of these "issues" aren't a staple of this particular port, but rather, they were present in the original as well.

BIL wrote:
What's not lovable, and briefly made me consider returning my copy, are the rare crash bugs. This reset one's easy to set up, and even easier to avoid. This one outright freezes the game (note the boned statbar), and I actually found it myself... seems to occur near that spawn point, when the Lindas are in a very specific area of the platform and Billy is in rising state. I just avoid that particular doorway and kill 'em all at the top of the cliff, job done. I wonder if both areas being 2D with eight-way scrolling and multiple spawn points is significant? Eh, either way both are a snap to avoid. Haven't seen any others, fortunately. I find a degree of rookie scuff endearing, especially in a production with such obvious heart - but I draw a line at crashes. Kills the groove! That's some lame-ass oldschool PC shit, and here I can't even download more RAM!


I had no idea the game had crashing bugs. None of them ever happened to me before.
I guess, on the bright side, they're not some random crashes that could happen at any point in the game. :mrgreen:

WelshMegalodon wrote:
BIL, any experience with the Master System port of Double Dragon?


I'm not too familiar with it (not as much as the FC and the arcade games), but it is much more faithful to the arcade original (the FC ports took quite the detour), and plays quite similar.
It also is compatible with the JP SMS-only FM unit, to provide better audio.

Another very faithful arcade port, is the unlicensed (by Sega, but with the proper rights from Technos, so it isn't a cheap knock-off) MD port.

Also BIL, are you familiar with the GB port? It is pretty similar to the FC port, but has a section from FC's DD2 (the part there the ground slowly gives in, and you must beat a baddie for the door to open, before the ground completely collapses).
Also, the stalactite section, than in the FC port is nasty, is much easier, as it has a standard pattern to it.

It does have a though final level as well, but that's much in tune with all the other games. :lol:

EDIT:

TransatlanticFoe wrote:
SMS Power has a lot of this stuff. Double Dragon was Technos:

http://www.smspower.org/Games/DoubleDragon-SMS

SMS Sagaia is indeed Natsume. The only bad words I've seen against it were magazine reviewers at the time - who were generally harsh on shoot 'em ups because they were bored of them. It's a bloody impressive port, though there's slowdown on a few bosses and flicker when it gets hectic.


Uh, but doesn't the link you posted say that the SMS port was programmed by Arc System Works?
After all, if that port was developed by Technos, the "reprogrammed by Sega" wouldn't fit, I think.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:26 am 


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Yeah looks like I misread it on my shitty phone. Either way, info's there and SMS Power is a great resource.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:10 am 


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TransatlanticFoe wrote:
Either way, info's there and SMS Power is a great resource.


Yeah, probably *the* place to go, on anything SMS (and variants) related.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:16 pm 


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Recorded a quickie DD1FC no-miss this afternoon. I've come to really love this port, as scruffy as it is. Its combat is simple, for sure, but never crude - there's a consistent finesse to cleanly taking out enemies (as my dying Afterglow dpad reminded me - apologies for the stiff/doofy/fraidycat play in spots >_<). A simpler, shorter game's a nice complement to DD2 (JP/Hard)'s nonstop technical intensity, too.

I admire the devs' obvious determination to not break aesthetic with health pickups - their absence across so many entries is remarkably consistent, and a small but valid part of the series' brutal tone. However, I think they overdid it slightly with the HP restore after each area in Mission 3 - once you've learned the ropes, it kinda trivialises survival. I'd have kept it to just the one after entering the cave. Likewise, just the one after scaling the wall in Mission 4. None at all would get a bit ridiculous, given the length of the FC's later stages.

I know when I'm struggling and relying on those restores, though, so self-policing's easy.

Something I didn't cover in my previous post is Williams and Roper's penchant for jumpkicking (they learn the move when you do, at XP level 3). I like the small gambling element there - approaching them on the ground risks a swift flying boot you'll need to dodge, but your own jumpkick could get ducked, so that's not a magic bullet either. Speedrunners don't like this, haha (I get what would be a run-ruining kick in the chops from the first Williams in 4-2... usually I can boot him into the drink, the bastard!).

I'm a little disappointed the snazzy staff roll (catalogued by TCRF) didn't make it in - they must've been really pressed for time. It's a characterful production that deserved a proper curtain call. Cool that the arcade's Garbage Can Cat got a cameo, at least! Or maybe it's his cousin, coffee table cat.

__SKYe wrote:
One glitch (technique :lol: ) you can do, but I'm not sure you're aware, is this:
Do you know when all the weapons on screen disappear, after you beat that particular group of enemies?
If you pickup one such weapon (or *the* weapon, as there's usually just one) just as it is about to disappear, then, sometimes you'll hold a weapon (a different one, though) when you shouldn't be able to.
I say *sometimes*, because most of the time, the weapon you picked up will just glitch for a second, and disappear afterwards.
It's not terribly useful, but interesting nonetheless. :mrgreen:


Haha, yeah - the Bat of Corruption! (or maybe barbed wire?) I convert Mission 2's crate to one in my replay for a laugh.

Apparently you can convert the final Chin's knife and keep it for the subsequent waves, with some wrangling... sounds a pain tbh, and a bit cheesy besides. Not that I should talk, having ruthlessly disabled Willy's machinegun right afterward. Ah Willy - in a sophisticated bit of ironic nomenclature on Technos's part, he's actually a pussy! And an asshole! I'm still a bit of a noob, and with the game's finicky grab mechanic, I'll occasionally get pistol-whipped or shot, so I took it easy.

Quote:
Another area I consider cheap/annoying, is the stalactites section of the 3rd(?) level, which in this port (at least to me) seem completely random. Sometimes I'll be able to go past them, no problem, but other times, I'll get hit by one, and often will also get hit by some others, since they continue to fall, and will do damage as soon as you're getting up. Thankfully, this section is short.


Definitely 100% random, and definitely possible to get dogpiled. I can consistently make it through, but I have to edge along and fight the temptation to rush. Once you get a feel for the section, it's possible to make a break for the end and despawn 'em.

Quote:
I had no idea the game had crashing bugs. None of them ever happened to me before.
I guess, on the bright side, they're not some random crashes that could happen at any point in the game. :mrgreen:


Yeah, mercifully, they seem limited to very specific circumstances. I was a bit alarmed that the one I found seems unreported online (at least in English... couldn't get very far searching Japanese sites), but with the game's popularity and age, I'm pretty sure random shutdowns would've been noted by now. Fingers crossed I guess. :wink:

Besides the well-known exploits that you can pretty much ignore (Mission 2's "invisible Williams punching bag" for free XP, various goofy barrel tricks), there's one glitch that's a persistent concern in regular play. Whenever you're near a doorway, or an Abobo entry point, your combo enders will activate prematurely. This has an obvious limited benefit, but it's also really friggin dangerous once you get the L7 roundhouse, since enemies that would normally have been stunned first will be active and able to smack you out of it (or shoot you out of it, in Willy's case). Not hard to work around, but a mild annoyance regardless.

There's also the "dud" dynamite/knife glitch. Basically if you hit an enemy with either at point-blank, it'll register as a punch and do accordingly puny damage. Conversely enemies can nail you at any distance for max damage. This is probably most relevant in the Williams fight at Mission 3-3's waterfalls.

Quote:
Also BIL, are you familiar with the GB port? It is pretty similar to the FC port, but has a section from FC's DD2 (the part there the ground slowly gives in, and you must beat a baddie for the door to open, before the ground completely collapses).
Also, the stalactite section, than in the FC port is nasty, is much easier, as it has a standard pattern to it.

It does have a though final level as well, but that's much in tune with all the other games. :lol:


I've been meaning to try it out - a miniaturised FC port to the early-years GB definitely sounds like the sort of thing that could win me over! I've a real weakness for doubling/tripling/Xing up on heroic home console interpretations.

I revisited Double Dragon Advance today, and hoooly crap! As much as I love Technos's FC ports, and even SFC's Return, DDA is hands-down the desert island pick. Augments the AC's raw violence with wickedly death-dealing techniques from across the entire Technos canon. You can juggle enemies, but it's not for tickling 'em with a feather and racking up absurd numbers ala Guardian Heroes... it's about bringing a broken body crashing to the floor. :twisted:

Its one weakness is its format's small screen and limited buttons; you can work around the former easily with emulation or a GB Player, but the controls take some wrangling. A+B's launcher-priming crouch also executes a very punishable-by-interference stomp on fallen enemies... so you need to develop a workaround instinct while fighting crowds with bodies dropping. Fortunately a quick repositioning is a snap given how mobile you are, and your basic standing kick has deadlier priority and crowd-stunning power than either launcher, so it's hardly a critical flaw.

I'm not sure if it's still the Survival Mode WR, but regardless: this replay is an absolute beaut, and also a great primer on how to handle the game's large moveset and enemies. I particularly like how he runs circles around the new "Agent Smith" (Agent Jeff?) type during their vicious barrages, and his aggressive use of the crouch to invade enemies' space. Highly recommended watching for any fan of Technos violence who's not acquainted with DDA.

Also, if you liked DD2's "Abobo with hair," you'll love what I can only describe as "MaFroFro." :cool: Just a shame that with all the colour variants, there's no blood-red Bobo for that authentic wall-busting Kool Aid Man effect! Oh yeaaa!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:09 pm 


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That was a great run, BIL, and also a very good example on performing the techniques you described on your previous post.

I've only managed to reach the last enemies right after the walls section, on a single credit, but now I got the proper motivation to finally get it done. :P
Learned quite a few things as well.

I also like how you go the extra mile to get EXP early on (by hitting them a lot), as you get the extra attacks very early on, at least compared to when I usually get them.
One attack I particularly like, is the grab, as you often go into a grab by kicking an enemy just barely in range, and you can follow up with a nice combo.
Apart from your get-close strategy against the kung-fu guys, I also usually do this to them, as this way I can *mostly* avoid their kicks. It doesn't work against Abobo, though.

On the Abobo, at the end of the first level, do you not send him through the hole, to get more EXP, or you just want to do it the hard way?

Here, at 3:04, a perfect example of the weapon glitch. :wink:

At 5:30, the way you round up those two kung-fu guys, is very good. I usually have trouble doing this on this game.

And fuck me, the way you handled the two Abobo's on stage 3 is absolutely fantastic.
This is the one spot where I usually lose the first life.

And the second green Abobo also on stage 3, that you send flying through the terrain... That was awesome.
At first, I thought you were either playing with him, or scratching your nose, or something, though. :mrgreen:

Had you ever been dropped from that platform (right after the green Abobo's, where the girl punches you) before? I didn't know you could just go down that way.

Haha, that cheeky knife kicking at 11:17. :lol:
I would totally have avoided that, if I were that close to the pit.

And yet another cheeky moment at 13:12. Poor guy, just lying in wait to be beaten, while in turn, you wait for the elevator. :cry:

Equally great treatment to the Abobo's on the final screen.
And the last boss (your brother?) takes an awful long time to die, no?

And how the hell did you made it so Willy's bullets didn't touch you? Is that a glitch?
If he's anywhere as annoying as in the arcade version (with the 1HKO bullets), then that's quite helpful.

Anyway, once again, really great run.

BIL wrote:
I admire the devs' obvious determination to not break aesthetic with health pickups - their absence across so many entries is remarkably consistent, and a small but valid part of the series' brutal tone. However, I think they overdid it slightly with the HP restore after each area in Mission 3 - once you've learned the ropes, it slightly trivialises survival. I'd have kept it to just the one after entering the cave. Likewise, just the one after scaling the wall in Mission 4. None at all would get a bit ridiculous, given the length of the FC's later stages.


Yeah, and Technos does seem to have thing for last stages that are quite a bit longer than the rest of the game (at least for their Famicom ports). Another case in point, the Kunio-kun game I've been playing.
Even if you know the proper route to take, the final level is about as big as half of the rest of the game, in length.

BIL wrote:
Something I didn't cover in my previous post is Williams and Roper's penchant for jumpkicking (they learn the move when you do, at XP level 3). I like the small gambling element there - approaching them on the ground risks a swift flying boot you'll need to dodge, but your own jumpkick could get ducked, so that's not a magic bullet either. Speedrunners don't like this, haha (I get what would be a run-ruining kick in the chops from the first Williams in 4-2... usually I can boot him into the drink, the bastard!).


Ah, so they get it when you do.
To me, it always seemed like they started using a lot of jump kicks, when I started jump kicking them (as in a revenge-style attitude).

BIL wrote:
I'm a little disappointed the snazzy staff roll (catalogued by TCRF) didn't make it in - they must've been really pressed for time. It's a characterful production that deserved a proper curtain call.


Yeah, it's pretty sad. They did a pretty good job with this port, so they most certainly deserve the credit.

BIL wrote:
Cool that the arcade's Garbage Can Cat got a cameo, at least!


Haha, perhaps "Machinegun" Willy has a soft spot for them. :lol:
And he's a lot more thoughtful here as well, as the girl gets to get locked in a nice room with a comfy bed, while on the arcade original, she's hung up by a rope from the ceiling. :mrgreen:

BIL wrote:
I've been meaning to try it out - a miniaturised FC port to the early-years GB definitely sounds like the sort of thing that could win me over! I've a real weakness for doubling/tripling/Xing up on heroic home console interpretations.


It is a nice port as well, and quite in tune with the FC ports in terms of gameplay, rather than the more straight arcade ports.
I just remembered, it also has a section similar to FC's DD2's helicopter door (where you get sucked in) on the last stage, except there are three such doors, and the 'sucking' alternates between one of them.
You have to fight a few enemies here, and you need to be very careful not to get sucked into those doors, otherwise it's 1HKO.
There are also spikes on the bottom part of the screen, which would otherwise be harmless (you'd just have to not move down), but can be surprisingly deadly, as you try to move away from the doors, and they suddenly stop sucking you. Happened to me a few times.

BIL wrote:
I revisited Double Dragon Advance today, and hoooly crap! As much as I love Technos's FC ports, and even SFC's Return, DDA is hands-down the desert island pick. Augments the AC games's raw violence with wickedly death-dealing techniques gleaned from across the entire Technos brawler canon. You can juggle enemies, but it's not for tickling 'em with a feather and racking up absurd numbers ala Guardian Heroes... it's about bringing a broken body crashing to the floor. :twisted:

Its one weakness is its format's small screen and limited buttons; you can work around the former easily with emulation or a GB Player, but the controls take some wrangling. A+B's launcher-priming crouch also executes a very punishable-by-interference stomp on fallen enemies... so you need to develop a workaround instinct while fighting crowds with bodies dropping. Fortunately a quick repositioning is a snap given how mobile you are, and your basic standing kick has deadlier priority and crowd-stunning power than either launcher, so it's hardly a critical flaw.

I'm not sure if it's still the Survival Mode WR, but regardless: this replay is an absolute beaut, and also a great primer on how to handle the game's large moveset and enemies. I particularly like how he runs circles around the new "Agent Smith" (Agent Jeff?) type during their vicious barrages, and his aggressive use of the crouch to invade enemies' space. Highly recommended watching for any fan of Technos violence who's not acquainted with DDA.


I've yet to play this game, but I certainly intend to do so.
You mention limited buttons, are the shoulder buttons not used at all, or are there just too many moves?

BIL wrote:
Also, if you liked DD2's "Abobo with hairplugs," you'll love what I can only describe as "MuhFroFro." :cool: Just a shame with all the colour variants, they didn't go for a blood-red Bobo for the authentic wall-busting Kool Aid Man effect!


Haha, I'm especially looking forward to this part. :lol:

A bit of a side note, but looking at your run, I can't help but think about that look of disinterest from your character.
He's like "C'mon, let's just get this over with.". :mrgreen:

Image

-----

I have to admit, for the longest time, and most likely because I came from the SOR/Final Fight school, the Technos' games always seemed pretty obtuse to me.
But since I've started playing them (and with time), I've kinda grown fond of them.

It's also interesting to see how their games influenced what came after, and not just the whole "belt scroller" formula.
Take, for example, Willy and his machinegun. Both SOR's and FF's final bosses are pretty much a remix of him, especially SOR's Mr.X, which even shares the weapon strike.

I guess I'm finally, honestly, giving them the credit they deserve, and I believe it also goes to show that some games/series are a bit of an acquired taste, and need to be given time to really be appreciated.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:29 pm 


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__SKYe wrote:
That was a great run, BIL, and also a very good example on performing the techniques you described on your previous post.


Thanks. :smile: It's really apparent to me how well DD1's simplicity complements DD2's technique... there's so many places to completely screw up on FC/Hard, I could never just bang out a run on the spot. :lol:

Quote:
One attack I particularly like, is the grab, as you often go into a grab by kicking an enemy just barely in range, and you can follow up with a nice combo.


DD1FC's semi-automated grab mechanic still flummoxes me a bit. I can get it 90% of the time, but either the zoning is very picky, or it actually relies on your screen position... because sometimes when it just won't work, I scoot a few pixels over and BAM! Grab after grab (good example is the Roper swarm at the end of Mission 4-1... it's raining men, baby!).

With Chins, I always try to hedge things slightly by moving forward as I give the boot, so if I don't get the grab I'm at least safely pointblanked. Missed Willy grabs ( :oops: ) are a real problem, still figuring that out. Jumpkicking him is relatively safe but takes ridiculously long and just feels lame.

Quote:
On the Abobo, at the end of the first level, do you not send him through the hole, to get more EXP, or you just want to do it the hard way?


Going for XP there - kicking him to death is 100% safe, but I can't resist the bonus XP for punching him (and it's just satisfying, too! Classic Technos left/right/left face-pounding!). The timing's really tight on a clean punching knockdown, though.

Quote:
At 5:30, the way you round up those two kung-fu guys, is very good. I usually have trouble doing this on this game.


I was really pleased with that - punching them out individually still gets tons of XP, but I thought it might be tedious to watch.

Quote:
And fuck me, the way you handled the two Abobo's on stage 3 is absolutely fantastic.
This is the one spot where I usually lose the first life.

And the second green Abobo also on stage 3, that you send flying through the terrain... That was awesome.
At first, I thought you were either playing with him, or scratching your nose, or something, though. :mrgreen:


It's all in the point-blanking with Bobos. ^__^ I also find that, even if you're surrounded by two, the one at your back will seemingly hesitate if you throw kicks at his partner. Since I'm typically moving forward while scoring hits (to keep in safe proximity), it's quite possible to keep out of the would-be backstabber's reach while demolishing his partner.

Quote:
Had you ever been dropped from that platform (right after the green Abobo's, where the girl punches you) before? I didn't know you could just go down that way.


Many times! Lindas have nasty hand speed, a missed grab can get you slugged quick. This time though, I got the grab but screwed up the kill. You need two knees before the throw - otherwise the Linda will survive the fall, and sit there offscreen while reinforcements spawn one-by-one. Kills the pace - I lost morale fast, didn't even mind getting clobbered off the ledge shortly after. :mrgreen:

The real reason I try to get the six kills at the upper ledge is that crash bug, which I've only seen happen when I'm to the left of the lowest spawn point. So far I've never seen it occur while to the right, but I figure better safe than sorry.

As for descending the cliff, yeah, you can hop from the entry doorway down to the first spawn point, then leap straight down to the penultimate floor - totally safe. Conversely, note that in Mission 3-3 (green cave)'s two falling sections, you've got to wait for the screen to finish scrolling in before jumping. Otherwise, you dead!

Quote:
Haha, that cheeky knife kicking at 11:17. :lol:
I would totally have avoided that, if I were that close to the pit.


I looove that trick - an example of the underrated finesse that sold me on the game. ^__^ Note you've gotta time it so you boot the knife on the way up; if you're at the jump peak, you're getting metal up your ass! Wait for them to throw the knife, then attack.

Quote:
And yet another cheeky moment at 13:12. Poor guy, just lying in wait to be beaten, while in turn, you wait for the elevator. :cry:


Damn Williams #1 screwed up that whole sequence with his surprise jumpkick! Then again I was banking on giving him a surprise boot into the drink, or maybe jumpkicking him off the ledge and pounding his face, so fair's fair. :lol: Even speedrunners will need to wait at one of the two final elevators, but if you hustle across quick, you can mess about with the last Williams, then catch both elevators in one swoop. Looks way smoother, but eh - imma noob, can't be too picky.

Quote:
Equally great treatment to the Abobo's on the final screen.
And the last boss (your brother?) takes an awful long time to die, no?


Yeah, Jimmy's got a ton of HP - tbh if I hadn't cheesed him with that elbow, and chucked in a couple more for good measure/demonstration, he might've gotten me near death. I like to fight him as "organically" as possible, but since he's able to bust out instant knockdowns, it's tricky. Way more boring jumpkick reliance than I prefer in this run. I love the gritty physicality of Technos beaters - the way characters get visibly staggered by a barrage of hits - so I'll try to use the KKE lockdown only after he's knocked me down. Or I've shoved him into a corner, where he's even more dangerous than usual - KKE lets me swap sides. He's also nearly as vulnerable to a couple boots and a roundhouse, which still gives him a chance to duck and counter.

Would've been cooler if he, too, had to tag you before a big finisher, but Technos were clearly at their technical limits, so I can't hold it against 'em. He's certainly an imposing final boss, at least.

As an aside - growing up, I was never certain if Jimmy was meant to be the outright enemy boss, or if he'd snuck in to challenge Billy for Marion's hand (thus replicating the AC's final PVP duel)... but in the FC manual he gets the full endboss treatment with some wicked-looking artwork. So I guess he's the Shin to Billy and Marion's Kenshiro/Yuria? Maybe Willy is playing the role of scheming Jagi, particularly hiding behind that gun... no way in hell could he pass for Raoh. Image I love how consistently Hokuto no Ken-influenced the series' Japanese artwork is - you'd never guess from the Western box.

Spoiler: show
Image


Quote:
And how the hell did you made it so Willy's bullets didn't touch you? Is that a glitch?
If he's anywhere as annoying as in the arcade version (with the 1HKO bullets), then that's quite helpful.


His bullets take a quarter of your lifebar, I think... sounds relatively lenient, but with Jimmy able to do so much damage (if not locked down), it adds up quickly. As for the trick I used, it's cheesy as hell but since I found it myself, and I'm still a bit shakey on beating his gunfire/whips, I decided to indulge. :mrgreen: I always let him get a few shots off, perhaps out of morbid curiosity, as I've had it fail at least a couple times over the fortnight I've been playing seriously. The way the game handles his aiming is kind of weird - it seems he'll usually miss you by default, and I guess since you're so low down, he can't adjust the follow-up. Works 95% of the time but I'd like to master fighting him upscreen.

I should note, as cheesy as the safespot is, you've got to avoid falling to your doom while activating it, and he can still whip you - less deadly than gunfire, but distinctly unhelpful with Jimmy waiting. Either way I don't love Willy tbh, so fuck him. Not literally! :shock: What a great name for an evil crimelord, lmao (Double Dragon Advance: "Willy lay still from exhaustion")

Quote:
A bit of a side note, but looking at your run, I can't help but think about that look of disinterest from your character.
He's like "C'mon, let's just get this over with.". :mrgreen:

Image


Bahaha, I know! This game's sprite art is so crude, yet so unfailingly expressive. I'm especially a fan of Roper's mopey look and downright mournful pain-face.

Image

Quote:
I've yet to play this game, but I certainly intend to do so.
You mention limited buttons, are the shoulder buttons not used at all, or are there just too many moves?


R is jump, which takes some adjusting but is surprisingly usable... while L is block/counter ala Return of DD, and tbh I think they'd have been better off making that crouch instead. Where countering is part of RODD's slow, choreography-oriented action, DDA is 110% aggression and it's just not very useful.

Still, it's about the only issue I have with DDA, and it's not even that big a deal in the grand scheme of things - it handles superbly otherwise. Million (ex-Technos devs) did a commendable job smoothing out the AC's clunkier aspects and hugely expanding its technique without losing an iota of brutality.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:25 pm 


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Professor Biruford is at it again! Nice run.

Looks like standing right on top of Abobo is the way to go. His punches seems to not connect most of the time that way.

Did I see you purposedly throw boxes/oil drums ousside the screen so as to get rid of the slowdown/flicker? :lol: Now that's a longplay with some personality, lol


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:42 pm 


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I do like chucking Roper's toys away where possible - baiting a whiffed throw wastes time, and nailing an armed one with KKPP without getting clobbered in the process is tricky. :mrgreen:

As technically basic as the game is, I'm actually kinda impressed with how enemies will not only break off attack to retrieve weapons, but will counterattack if you try exploiting this. I thought Technos only got around to this in DDIII. Then again in RoDD, enemies stop acknowledging a weapon's existence once it hits the floor, and they're just as dumb with regards to stuff like dynamite. Oh well rofl!

8/16-bit DD is on par with Assault Suits for scattering its best features across several games, without ever nailing that one all-encompassing masterpiece. Happily, DD Advance is genuinely close to being that game. I will swear by DD2FC as one helluva brawler in its exclusive, NES-annihilating Hard mode; enemy/stage/system design synergy so tight, its 2 baddies onscreen Achilles' heel is all but transcended.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:35 am 


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One thing I find interesting about the SMS Double Dragon is that the sprites seem to be based on the NES sprites, despite how the game is based on the arcade version. I like what I played of it, but the hit detection is a bit iffy in that version.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:00 pm 


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Alright, just got the 1CC for Double Dragon (FC), twice in a row, actually. :lol:

ImageImage

Lost 2 lives on both runs, but the second 1CC was a bit close to being a 1LC.

I'll just discuss the last run, since it is the most recent/important.

Lost the first life on the Ropers after the 2 Abobos, right before the final section of the last level, and lost the second one, on the final boss.

For the first life, I had little HP left (2 bars, I think), and those bastards kept using those damned jump kicks.
Honestly, I have a newfound hate for those, as they come so randomly, they're damn hard to avoid.

But most importantly, the reason I had so little HP left in the first place, is because I got hit twice by the walls section.
I tried (and partially succeeded -- got past the first wall unscathed), but took a hit near the end of the second wall, which made my character fall to the ground, and take another hit just as he was getting up.
Getting hit twice shaves about half of your HP, on problem.

Also, what doesn't help, and I also grew to dislike more and more, is the spin-kick/roundhouse.
It fails a lot, which against some of the more powerful enemies, leaves you open for a counter-attack.

I'm not sure if it's the exact same kick, but towards the end of the game, when you've got all the moves, your character, sometimes, will immediately use such a kick, even when you press the kick button for the first time, which is tremendously annoying, as you'll miss it most of the time.
I guess it is based on you being at a specific range that triggers it, but I could really go without it.

Mainly, they reason I lost the second life against the last boss, was because I was trying to use the close quarters tactic (much like the Abobos), but the damn dude kept using that spin-kick, missing it every time, and getting it in return.

I found that, the easiest way to beat him, is to kick him from a distance (much like against the Lindas, Ropers, etc), and if you kick him just when he gets in range, you'll be able to dish out three kicks, and he'll fall down.
Of course, you'll occasionally miss the last kick (which is usually a roundhouse), but hell usually use a jump kick in return,which isn't too damaging.

Another more minor issue, is the semi-random grabs you do.
By themselves, the grabs aren't bad, but it so happens that I enjoy using a KK+Uppercut combo (since the uppercut always hits, and the roundhouse does not). The bad part about this is that, if your character happens to grab the opponent as you're about to Uppercut, you'll throw them instead, while you could hit them a few times instead.
But if you keep kicking, counting on the grab, and your character happens not to grab, then you'll end up doing the roundhouse, and potentially missing it.

Again, not a big issue (and no issue at all for people who don't usually uppercut), but it kinda gets in the way.
I guess it is one of the issues with having quite a few "contextual" moves, as occasionally, you'll inadvertently use an unwanted one.

As for Willy-man, using BIL's "go as far down as possible" tactic, I was able to beat him both times without taking a hit. Great tactic indeed BIL. 8)

Other than that, the game is very enjoyable, and certainly not a button-mashing fest, at all.

BrianC wrote:
One thing I find interesting about the SMS Double Dragon is that the sprites seem to be based on the NES sprites, despite how the game is based on the arcade version. I like what I played of it, but the hit detection is a bit iffy in that version.


This is just my opinion, of course, but it might just be that Technos realized that the arcade's big sprites wouldn't go very well on such a weaker system, and since they already had the Famicom's sprites done (since the FC port came out first), they probably just went ahead and used them.

BIL wrote:
As an aside - growing up, I was never certain if Jimmy was meant to be the outright enemy boss, or if he'd snuck in to challenge Billy for Marion's hand (thus replicating the AC's final PVP duel)... but in the FC manual he gets the full endboss treatment with some wicked-looking artwork. So I guess he's the Shin to Billy and Marion's Kenshiro/Yuria? Maybe Willy is playing the role of scheming Jagi, particularly hiding behind that gun... no way in hell could he pass for Raoh. Image I love how consistently Hokuto no Ken-influenced the series' Japanese artwork is - you'd never guess from the Western box.


Yep, the Japanese artwork really shows the inspiration/connection to Hokuto No Ken.
As for Willy, I like to think that he's more of a remnant (or perhaps an evolution) from Technos' previous game (Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun), which features a gun-wielding final boss as well.

Also notice the Famicom port's cover (which you are most likely familiar with), which also nicely shows the inspiration from HNK.
Spoiler: show
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:32 pm 


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Congrats on the 1CC Skye! Feels pretty novel clearing one of these ubiquitous NES favourites so late in the day, don't you think? Despite the rough edges, it's a badass trip with enduring style and genuine technique. Can't believe I overlooked it for so long. :cool: (misinformation is an ugly thing, kids! 3; )

__SKYe wrote:
Lost the first life on the Ropers after the 2 Abobos, right before the final section of the last level, and lost the second one, on the final boss.


You almost certainly know this already, in fact I feel a bit daft pointing it out :oops: - but just in case, note that you can ignore Mission 4-1's Abobos entirely. I just whoop 'em to assert dominance. Image

...actually tbh, this game is so jammed full of bizarre glitchy stuff, it's hard to know what's obvious and what isn't. :mrgreen:

Quote:
For the first life, I had little HP left (2 bars, I think), and those bastards kept using those damned jump kicks.
Honestly, I have a newfound hate for those, as they come so randomly, they're damn hard to avoid.


The 4-1 Roper gang is potentially really dangerous, coming after the wall and Chins (and possibly two Abobos). Generally speaking, if I'm fighting them (or Williams) without HP to spare, I'll approach via jumpkick, from moderately close in. If they duck, I'll overshoot and can usually hold up/down to get clear without suffering more than a couple weak punches. If I connect, I can do serious/fatal damage with a ground pound. Even a couple mounted punches will decimate grunts, and you can instantly cancel if their partner's too close. Of course you can also tag them with a kick as they recover, timed to overlap as they go from crouched to standing.

It's a volatile thing for sure. In a way these enemies can be trickier to engage than Abobo and Chin, though they obviously can't compare for raw power or HP.

Quote:
But most importantly, the reason I had so little HP left in the first place, is because I got hit twice by the walls section.
I tried (and partially succeeded -- got past the first wall unscathed), but took a hit near the end of the second wall, which made my character fall to the ground, and take another hit just as he was getting up.
Getting hit twice shaves about half of your HP, on problem.


I use the thick black shadow of the second-lowest block's left edge as a guide. Basically, you want Billy's fist to be just touching it. You can actually get closer without being hit, but there's no need - fistbump is plenty. Once the block fires, a jumpkick will carry you over it and land you safely on the other side, ready to repeat the same move. The maneuver is identical on all four jumps - it's just waiting for the safe block to fire that varies.

Super Clean Wall Bros (regular speed)
Spoiler: show
Image


Super Clean Wall Bros II: WALL HARDER (same clip, slowed down for clarity)
Spoiler: show
Image


Note that you can wait on each "safe block" indefinitely - you're 100% safe while pointblanking them.

I really like executing this maneuver. Partially for the crispness of the collision and Billy's snappy jump arc... partially because the obstacle is such a blatant crock of shit at first. :lol:

Quote:
Also, what doesn't help, and I also grew to dislike more and more, is the spin-kick/roundhouse.
It fails a lot, which against some of the more powerful enemies, leaves you open for a counter-attack.


Bit of a poisoned chalice, that move. I can't help liking such a JCVD-tastic finisher, and it's pretty damn satisfying to kill grunts outright / clobber Chins and Abobos (it's the only move that feels like it really hurts them, imo, besides the cheesy elbow), but yeah - with the risk attached, I almost think it should've been given a seperate input. Jimmy gets to keep both roundhouses. 3;

Quote:
I'm not sure if it's the exact same kick, but towards the end of the game, when you've got all the moves, your character, sometimes, will immediately use such a kick, even when you press the kick button for the first time, which is tremendously annoying, as you'll miss it most of the time.
I guess it is based on you being at a specific range that triggers it, but I could really go without it.


That sounds like the door glitch - basically if you're near one, your combo enders will activate early (it's really apparent when fighting Mission 3-3's green Abobos). For Abobos, I find as long as you're at safe proximity, they won't be able to punch you out of the roundhouse - if they duck, it's critical you hold [forward] and regain the safespot; they'll be backing up while you whiff, and will stuff your next attack. Get pointblank again and resume attacking.

Willy's another big problem here. Still working on it. >_< I suspect keeping away from the arena door might help. Eh... at least you can cheese the fucker. Image

Quote:
I found that, the easiest way to beat him, is to kick him from a distance (much like against the Lindas, Ropers, etc), and if you kick him just when he gets in range, you'll be able to dish out three kicks, and he'll fall down. Of course, you'll occasionally miss the last kick (which is usually a roundhouse), but hell usually use a jump kick in return,which isn't too damaging.


KK (stun) then a close roundhouse is a really good tack - I like it since it gives him a chance to duck, which can lead to some fun exchanges. The absolute safest way to destroy him is KK (stun) then turn and elbow - he simply cannot dodge or counter it.

As with elbow techniques in general though, I find it just too exploity (against all other enemies, besides maybe Willy, spamming the elbow as they approach will nail them within four/five reps every time). Incidentally, besides the supposed "mashing," the other side of the misinformation coin for me was having to rely on boring exploits. BZZT naw, you don't need any of that crap to comprehensively beat chumps down. :cool:

Quote:
Another more minor issue, is the semi-random grabs you do.
By themselves, the grabs aren't bad, but it so happens that I enjoy using a KK+Uppercut combo (since the uppercut always hits, and the roundhouse does not). The bad part about this is that, if your character happens to grab the opponent as you're about to Uppercut, you'll throw them instead, while you could hit them a few times instead.
But if you keep kicking, counting on the grab, and your character happens not to grab, then you'll end up doing the roundhouse, and potentially missing it.

Again, not a big issue (and no issue at all for people who don't usually uppercut), but it kinda gets in the way.
I guess it is one of the issues with having quite a few "contextual" moves, as occasionally, you'll inadvertently use an unwanted one.


DDII's manual grabbing was a huuuge improvement - DD1's system is pretty serviceable but yeah, it definitely adds a niggling uncertainty to things.

Quote:
Yep, the Japanese artwork really shows the inspiration/connection to Hokuto No Ken.
As for Willy, I like to think that he's more of a remnant (or perhaps an evolution) from Technos' previous game (Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun), which features a gun-wielding final boss as well.


As an aside, I like how Technos, Capcom and Sega all had their own takes on a gun-wielding crime boss. Sabu and Willy come off as ruthless cowards. Belger is almost sympathetic with his fucked-up back. :lol: And BKII's Mr. X is enjoying the indiscriminate slaughter with such belly-laughing gusto, it's hard not to like the guy. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:53 am 


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BIL wrote:
Congrats on the 1CC Skye! Feels pretty novel clearing one of these ubiquitous NES favourites so late in the day, don't you think? Despite the rough edges, it's a badass trip with enduring style and genuine technique. Can't believe I overlooked it for so long. :cool: (misinformation is an ugly thing, kids! 3; )


Yes it does! And despite not being quite as good as DD2, it is a major step up from their previous game (Kunio-kun).
Gonna go for the 1LC next, and it shouldn't be too hard, now that I now how to do it.

BIL wrote:
You almost certainly know this already, in fact I feel a bit daft pointing it out :oops: - but just in case, note that you can ignore Mission 4-1's Abobos entirely. I just whoop 'em to assert dominance. Image

...actually tbh, this game is so jammed full of bizarre glitchy stuff, it's hard to know what's obvious and what isn't. :mrgreen:


Actually I didn't know. :shock:
Since there is no other place in the game where you can bypass enemies to enter doors (at least that I'm aware of), I didn't think it was possible here.

Much like yourself though, I enjoy beating those two Abobos, and they're pretty easy, since there's only one at a time. :lol:
I find the Roper crew right after, to be more dangerous than them.

BIL wrote:
The 4-1 Roper gang is potentially really dangerous, coming after the wall and Chins (and possibly two Abobos). Generally speaking, if I'm fighting them (or Williams) without HP to spare, I'll approach via jumpkick, from moderately close in. If they duck, I'll overshoot and can usually hold up/down to get clear without suffering more than a couple weak punches. If I connect, I can do serious/fatal damage with a ground pound. Even a couple mounted punches will decimate grunts, and you can instantly cancel if their partner's too close. Of course you can also tag them with a kick as they recover, timed to overlap as they go from crouched to standing.

It's a volatile thing for sure. In a way these enemies can be trickier to engage than Abobo and Chin, though they obviously can't compare for raw power or HP.


Oh god, the mounting punches. I completely frogot you can do them in this game as well.
They should come quite handy here, since there are only two enemies at once, at all times, so you have plenty of time to beat them up this way. And you only need to score a knockdown.

BIL wrote:
I use the thick black shadow of the second-lowest block's left edge as a guide. Basically, you want Billy's fist to be just touching it. You can actually get closer without being hit, but there's no need - fistbump is plenty. Once the block fires, a jumpkick will carry you over it and land you safely on the other side, ready to repeat the same move. The maneuver is identical on all four jumps - it's just waiting for the safe block to fire that varies.


Yeah, I had watched your run before, and was trying to emulate what you did, but the line between seeing and doing can be a little thick. :oops:
I did partially succeed, but in this section getting hit by one of the protrusions near the left side of the wall (any of them) will most likely make you get hit by another, just as your character is getting up. I still need some training here.

Though, to be honest, losing a life after this was more due to my lack of skill, rather than outright "cheapness" (if you can call it that) from this section. I should have been able to clear that checkpoint/area (until the next HP refill) even with half life, so the blame's on me. :lol:

BIL wrote:
I really like executing this maneuver. Partially for the crispness of the collision and Billy's snappy jump arc... partially because the obstacle is such a blatant crock of shit at first. :lol:


Haha, yeah, but after seeing your video, it's clear that you can reliably pass this section without taking damage.
The arcade original's walls section, at least from what I played, seemed to be much more random/cheap (not only are the movements more random, but each hit shaves half of your HP), not to mention the spear section right after is equally bollocks.

All in all, I'm absolutely fine if the game gets brutal by using its standard mechanics/gameplay (like more enemies, or more vicious attacks/enemy combinations), but this kind of out-of-place traps really irk me, though.

BIL wrote:
Bit of a poisoned chalice, that move. I can't help liking such a JCVD-tastic finisher, and it's pretty damn satisfying to kill grunts outright / clobber Chins and Abobos (it's the only move that feels like it really hurts them, imo, besides the cheesy elbow), but yeah - with the risk attached, I almost think it should've been given a seperate input. Jimmy gets to keep both roundhouses. 3;


Yeah, it is a cool attack indeed, but sometimes, when I'm on low health or in a dangerous section, and I'm really trying to use more "safe" moves, it is detrimental when those spin-kicks come out like that.

And the door glitch you mention, that makes your combo enders activate prematurely, is really a pain in the ass as well.
I mean, I can live with the roundhouses and their inherent low accuracy, but, at the very least, I expect to be able to get a standard kick on my first (and second, usually) kick button press, and not a slow roundhouse/spin-kick.

Though, yes, given the FC's 2 buttons, Technos managed to squeeze a pretty nice amount of moves into this game, so they're forgiven. :lol:

BIL wrote:
Willy's another big problem here. Still working on it. >_< I suspect keeping away from the arena door might help. Eh... at least you can cheese the fucker.


Thankfully, otherwise that last section would be quite a bit harder, given it's 1/4 HP draining bullets.
Though in defense of the cheesing, the game does throw two (tough) bosses at you, so I'm fine with it.

DD2 also has two bosses (counting the final boss' 2 phases as one), but I think they aren't as dangerous as a trigger-happy Willy (provided you have a strategy for them).
The ninja team just before the bosses in DD2 alone, is much harder than the standard enemies before the bosses in DD1 though, so it kinda evens out.

BIL wrote:
KK (stun) then a close roundhouse is a really good tack - I like it since it gives him a chance to duck, which can lead to some fun exchanges. The absolute safest way to destroy him is KK (stun) then turn and elbow - he simply cannot dodge or counter it


Yeah, the KK+something is the one tactic I found works best.
Even though he will counter-attack every so often, you can mostly avoid big damage, by moving up or down after you regain control of your character.
You do need to press that kick button with the right timing, because if he gets too close, you'll likely get pounded. Against the standard enemies, you'd just trade a few punches, but Billy can do big damage.

BIL wrote:
As with elbow techniques in general though, I find it just too exploity (against all other enemies, besides maybe Willy, spamming the elbow as they approach will nail them within four/five reps every time). Incidentally, besides the supposed "mashing," the other side of the misinformation coin for me was having to rely on boring exploits. BZZT naw, you don't need any of that crap to comprehensively beat chumps down. :cool:


Elbows will work tremendously well in the arcade game as well, as not only does it have a enormous range (about as big as a kick), but the enemies will gladly walk into your elbow range all the time, and you'll never miss.

And yeah, spamming jump kicks all the time is very boring, yet it is a common tactic since it gives the illusion of safety by being able to attack from afar. I do find them pretty useful, but mostly to safely approach an enemy, or as a means to start a combo.

BIL wrote:
DDII's manual grabbing was a huuuge improvement - DD1's system is pretty serviceable but yeah, it definitely adds a niggling uncertainty to things.


Yeah, it mostly works well, and does feel pretty good to automatically grab an enemy after a good kick.
I just recently started having a little trouble with it, when I started using more uppercuts as a finishing move, since it always hits.

But it's really nothing serious, and you do get a throw (if he grabs the enemy, and you press the Punch button) so it's not too bad.

-----

Continuing my Ys quest, I've been playing Ys IV (the PCE version) for awhile, and I found something really interesting.

As I was fighting the second boss, I realized the BGM sounded really familiar, and almost automatically realized that it was pretty much "borrowed" from Yngwie Malmsteen's Far Beyond The Sun.

Now, as I was searching for a Youtube video, to show you guys, so you could hear the piece itself and compare it to the original, I realized that there was no way in hell others hadn't noticed the connection, so I wondered if the in the soundtrack's video, there wouldn't be a comment precisely about that -- and I wasn't disappointed. :lol:

Image

Here's the soundtrack video, and Yngwie's original song.
Do go to minute 8:35 to listen to the piece in question, and also to minute 9:18 to the second "borrowed" part in that same piece.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:37 am 


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I'm considering making a romhack of Super Mario Bros. 3 to make it play less like an easy casual jumping game, and more like those hardcore arcade type action game that we celebrate in this thread. I always considered it a very easy game, but I feel like its stages are well designed enough to pose enough of a challenge without the need to change any of the stages at all, if only the game would stop showering you with 1ups and helpful items.

Here are my ideas so far, so any other feedback is welcome:

- No continues, obviously. (or allow continues but somehow mark the game as "cheating" or "training" once it's been done once.
- Based on the Japanese version with its much harsher punishment for being hit (always reverts to small mario instead of just losing the highest powerup)
- No warp whistles. Maybe allow one, just to potentially make the game a bit shorter? Or some other kind of limit to how many or which worlds can be skipped. I wouldn't mind skipping worlds 2, 3 and 4 at least.
- No other overworld items, at all.
- Start out with 3 lives instead of 5.
- No cards at the end of the stage / no 1ups awarded from cards.
- No bonus rooms whatsoever (match cards, lineup images, etc.)
- Only allow one 1up mushroom per stage to avoid potentially suiciding to hoard lives.
- No extra lives from coins, or at least require collecting a lot more than 100, again to prevent suicide hoarding.
- Maybe a stricter time limit on stages that actually requires the player to push forward constantly?


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:06 pm 


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Score-based extends only and remove 1 up mushrooms? Coins for points vs points for time remaining would be an interesting balance to strike, though I really don't remember how score goes in Mario 3.
Continues allowed (max 3 or 5) but take you back to the first stage of the world and wipe your score?

Reduction in extends and power ups would really ramp things up - the hit back down to small Mario is a great one too.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:27 pm 


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TransatlanticFoe wrote:
Score-based extends only and remove 1 up mushrooms?


I considered this too, but the score system in Mario Bros. 3 is severely broken. Everything gives points, and it's stupidly easy to abuse. I would like to have some extends, but even just with the 1up mushrooms, there's a lot to go for if you know where to find them. Therefore I would definitely not allow more than one per stage.

A no-miss mode with absolutely no extends possible would be cool, too. It's a horribly long game to no-miss, but I can imagine going for it is a rush. Speedrunners do it pretty regularly.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:17 pm 


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So much wonderful discussion about the NES port of DD1. I played that game to death! That moving wall section... nightmares about that. Such utter luck-based bullshit to get through. I remember waiting for many minutes trying to work out a pattern to it and it doesn't seem to have any real 'openings' unless I'm missing something.

__SKYe wrote:
I just recently started having a little trouble with it, when I started using more uppercuts as a finishing move, since it always hits.


Kick -> Kick -> Punch (Uppercut) is definitely overlooked and useful, especially when the jumping spin kick (when you have the hearts) can be riskier. I usually go for the spin kick anyways just cause the damage is so massive on it, but when you're low on health the Uppercuts are always an option.

Has anyone found a use for the doubletap forward Headbutt move? I guess it's a quick knockdown, but I've never found any section that's easier when you use it.

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As an aside - growing up, I was never certain if Jimmy was meant to be the outright enemy boss, or if he'd snuck in to challenge Billy for Marion's hand


Hah, I always assumed he was just the bad guy behind the kidnapping, that idea never occurred to me!
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:44 pm 


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About Mario 3:

I actually think the almost rpg/adventure-esque map plotting and resource management is one of the most interesting things about the game.

I would say maybe leave in a few of the items (warp whistles gotta go, but maybe leave in hammers and the area skip clouds?) and instead make them more challenging and risk/reward balanced to reach. IE in order to get a hammer and open up a shortcut, you have to go down a very difficult optional/secret set of rooms and risk dying a few times.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:51 pm 


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That's a cool idea, but it's besides my original goal. I do like the "resource management" in the game, and it definitely makes speedrun routing interesting. It's also just plain good design - give the player a bunch of free passes along the way with limited uses and allow them to choose their route, prioritizing the stages they prefer playing over others. The game is large enough that it can afford that and still remain fun.

That said though, the game showers you with items that make the game easier, and I think it's at a cost of the truly marvelous parts of the game. Truth is, there is barely a boring stage in the game, there is no true reason to skip anything, and powerups feel better when you work for them in the stages. Though not a hard game, it's a challenging game, and that challenge works better when it can't simply be bypassed with helpful items. Therefore my idea was to play the game in a way focused entirely on what I think it does best, which is absolutely solid platforming gameplay. I want to turn the focus to these things, rather than try to make changes that I figured would improve them. There are already enough romhacks out there that changes the stages, and some really well done ones among them.

In short, my goal is not really a romhack, but rather a set of rules that would make the game feel more rewarding for me to play. But implementing those in a romhack would definitely be cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:04 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
That moving wall section... nightmares about that. Such utter luck-based bullshit to get through. I remember waiting for many minutes trying to work out a pattern to it and it doesn't seem to have any real 'openings' unless I'm missing something.


There's this impressively exhaustive study on Youtube; apparently it catalogues most if not all of the possible block patterns. My brain's not so great at that stuff but happily, it can be boiled down to: "wait for second-lowest block to fire, jumpkick over, repeat." There's apparently scope for higher-level predictive voodoo - I distinctly recognise the pattern where the uppermost block fires a tedious number of times - but I'm happy with the method GIFfed in my previous post. Works 100% of the time, to the point I don't worry about that section at all.

Quote:
Has anyone found a use for the doubletap forward Headbutt move? I guess it's a quick knockdown, but I've never found any section that's easier when you use it.


Seems pretty superfluous from what I can tell - though I notice the current SDA run gets a quick "off the building" kill on Mission 2's Chin with it. So it might come in handy if you really, really need a fast guaranteed knockdown on a Chin or Abobo and can't spare the time using pointblank KKP for the same result (P to avoid the potential of a missed roundhouse).
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:11 am 


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I remember reading a claim that the headbutt was very unbalanced in one version of DD1 and could be used on most enemies in the game. I don't think that claim was about the NES version. Maybe the SMS or AC version?


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:06 am 


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BrianC wrote:
I remember reading a claim that the headbutt was very unbalanced in one version of DD1 and could be used on most enemies in the game. I don't think that claim was about the NES version. Maybe the SMS or AC version?


Head butt I don't know about, but the elbow is completely exploitable and you can finish the entire game using it alone.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:37 am 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Kick -> Kick -> Punch (Uppercut) is definitely overlooked and useful, especially when the jumping spin kick (when you have the hearts) can be riskier. I usually go for the spin kick anyways just cause the damage is so massive on it, but when you're low on health the Uppercuts are always an option.


Yeah, the Uppercut has 100% accuracy, and that is why I gravitated towards it as a finisher, even though it has a lower damage output.

One thing I got a bit better doing, is scoring the grabs.
Previously, they just happened naturally, when I kicked, if I had the proper spacing, but now I like to do a little tap forward, after a kick, and your character will usually grab the opponent (bar the occasional jump kick/Chin's knockdown).
It also makes the grabs feel slightly less random, and overall even more useful.

Skykid wrote:
BrianC wrote:
I remember reading a claim that the headbutt was very unbalanced in one version of DD1 and could be used on most enemies in the game. I don't think that claim was about the NES version. Maybe the SMS or AC version?


Head butt I don't know about, but the elbow is completely exploitable and you can finish the entire game using it alone.


Yep, Skykid's right, but only in the arcade original.

I just played through the arcade version, and managed to finish it with 2 credits.
I no-missed the entire game, until the walls/spears section of the final level, where I lost my 2 extra lives, and was left with 1~2 HP left.
Much more so than the NES counterpart (and there're no spears in that version), these sections are absolute bullshit. Due to not having any i-frames whatsoever, if you get hit even once in the walls or the spears, it is quite likely that you'll get hit again, and it's one life gone (you have 5HP max, and each hit does 3HP of damage).
The best you can do, is to use your brief invincibility time on respawn, to try to get past these sections.

Another thing I found out (though, accidentally), is that I believe you cannot take more damage, when you are getting knocked down (like when you get jump kicked, and are falling), and you can sort of use this, on the spears section, by deliberately letting the enemies jump kick you while you're facing left, so that get thrown *somewhat* past the spears.
Do note that this is very unreliable, as not only will you take damage from the kick, you'll also likely land in the middle of the spear stabbing, and take a hit (or two), but enemies can be stabbed too, so they'll most likely not be able to kick you all the way (repeatedly) to the other side.

I find it really a shame that you need to "gamble" your way through this part, even if you otherwise had a perfect run. Of course, the ability to cheese your way through the game, isn't exactly fair either, but if you don't do so, the game gets much, much tougher. :lol:
Then, of course, there might be a pattern to these sections (like in the NES version), though I'm not aware of it.

The last life (and a couple others, from the next credit), were lost, in no small part, due to accidentally using the headbutt.
I already think it is a bit too easy to accidentally use it playing through the game, but with the slowdown that happens when there are many enemies onscreen, it gets even easier.
And when you miss the headbutt, you'll likely get hit in return, and in case of the last boss' fight, you'll die, if he manages to shoot you (which happened once in this run).
I could really go without it, as it really doesn't have particular use, since enemies are very likely to jump kick you (or whatever) long before you're able to headbutt them.

One interesting thing about this game (only the arcade game has this, if I'm not mistaken), is that, unlike the common enemies, the speed at which special enemies/bosses (like the Abobos, the slick enemies that appear at the end of stage 3/start of stage 4 and the final boss) get up after a knockdown, is proportional to the amount of HP they have left.
When you first hit them, they'll get up almost immediately, but as you do more damage, they'll take longer and longer to get up.
A very nice touch, in my opinion. :wink:

As for the SMS port, the story's quite different.
Though, at first glance, it seems to be pretty similar to the arcade version, it plays a fair bit differently.
Headbutts are pretty much as useless as in the arcade version, and you won't be able to hit anything with the elbow, as enemies will top moving when you perform the elbow move, and you'll hit nothing.
Jump kicks on the other hand, will hit everytime, though they won't always score a knockdown (and similar moves, that in other versions always score a knockdown when they hit, will also not do so as the levels progress).
As you progress through the game, enemies stop getting knocked down in one hit by such moves (like jump kicks, reverse kicks, etc), which somewhat brings down the usefulness of jump kicks a notch.
But on the other hand, it is possible, depending on when you jumpkick, to hit enemies twice with a single kick, knocking them down in the process (this is most noticeable against Abobos), though it's not an exact thing.

All enemies also get up faster than the other versions, and though you can pickup dynamites thrown by the enemies, they explode much faster, making it much more dangerous than, say, the NES version.

Also when continuing, unlike most console games, you'll continue on the spot (much like when you insert a new credit on the arcade version), but you cannot continue on the final stage, and it's back to the first stage, if you lose all lives.

There are 2 walls sections here (each section having 2 walls), along the spears section as well, and although they are quite a bit slower, they're just as deadly.

And, of course, as has been said before, the hit detection is a bit shoddy. You need to be almost perfectly parallel to the enemies in order to hit them, and whips, for example, although they appear to have quite the length, really only have half the visual length, as far as the hit detection system is concerned, so you still need to get in punch range to use them.

Also, it's possible to get locked into a Abobo throwing pattern, and die without being able to do anything.
This happened to me on the 1st stage's boss, as he threw me over his shoulder, and continued to do it over and over until I lost a life.

In short, I prefer the NES/FC version over this one by a longshot, and even more than the arcade game, as I think the NES port is much more enjoyable to play overall.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:52 am 


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__SKYe wrote:
One interesting thing about this game (only the arcade game has this, if I'm not mistaken), is that, unlike the common enemies, the speed at which special enemies/bosses (like the Abobos, the slick enemies that appear at the end of stage 3/start of stage 4 and the final boss) get up after a knockdown, is proportional to the amount of HP they have left.
When you first hit them, they'll get up almost immediately, but as you do more damage, they'll take longer and longer to get up.
A very nice touch, in my opinion. :wink:


DD Advance keeps this "analogue" stamina system too, and incorporates it into its ground attacks. A fresh enemy will be tricky to catch with the diving spine-stomp, while it's possible to nail a weakened one with two consecutively (almost certainly fatal). Mounted punching, too - flagging enemies will take progressively more hits before shoving you off. By the point you're able to land four unanswered punches to their battered mug, they're usually brown fuckin bread. Gritty, dominant. Image

Among the many things DDA borrowed from Kunio and Combatribes. I do wish they'd included the latter's mounted attack for enemies lying prone. Nothing quite matches the primal ugliness of pinning a fucker down and smashing their face into the floor repeatedly. Image

Image

By comparison, in stuff like DD1FC mounted punches are "digital," on/off. Either a certain kill, or broken instantly (Chin). DD2FC/Hard's grapples work the same with Ropers and Right Arms - gotta smack 'em around a bit before they'll stay tied up.

Technos always held to the ideal of unvarnished, bloody-nosed street violence rounded off by a streak of b-movie swagger. I don't think they ever quite produced a masterpiece, but their beater canon has an inimitable charm for it (as do their closely-related "combat sports" games).

On the subject of analogue brutality, any Technos fan should try out AKI's N64 wrestling games. I suggest Virtual Pro Wrestling 2, with a translation FAQ (GameFAQs has several exhaustive guides). I should try whipping up a few Technos and Capcom characters, come to think of it. :cool:

Spoiler: show
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BAH GAWD HE BROKEN IN HAFF

---

Thing What I Learned 2DAY: apparently you can skip the Ice Palace stage in Lickle Samson, by finishing the previous stage (Lickle prelude stage redux) without an HP restore potion for the titular character. Tha fuck?! :O

Posting for future generations, as I had to look up TASvideos to figure out what was up. Annoying as hell tbh, I love that stage and its boss. Easily avoided though! I'd probably never have found out, if I wasn't screwing aboutt with some alternate boss strategies and using up all my potions. Normally I barely use Lickle himself, it's all about DGM's advanced mobility + boss demolition unit. I wonder if it's a glitch or a feature.

I already knew about skipping to the bubble cave from the st2 ruins by killing Ogre with mousey. Again, wonder how intentional that was. I could see it being welcome for those wanting a shorter game, but tbh I can't think of one stage or boss here I don't like/love.
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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:07 am 


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The whole map / stage progression thing in Lickle Samson is confusing the hell out of me in general. I'm gonna play through the game soon, and this is the stuff that's damaging the appeal for me. Is there a simple "spoiler free" guide on how the stages work?


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 Post subject: Re: Ninja Gaiden [NES] + Sidescrolling Action Miscs
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:16 am 


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From what I understand (having looked around for any other route changes/stage skips), the game's almost totally linear. The only ways to change your route are:

1) kill st2 boss (Ogre) with mouse. This'll skip you ahead a few stages, to the bubble cave.

2) fall into the waterfall at the water elemental boss. This'll take you to a hidden stage with a few unique things before putting you back on the main path. (come to think of it... if there's a stage I don't like it's this one, being a rather tame autoscroller with a forgettable boss! I never bother with it)

3) the aforementioned Ice Palace skip, which happens when you leave the Lickle prelude stage redux without an HP restore potion. Make sure Lickle's carrying one (there's a set pickup in the vertical drop midway through the stage), and you won't encounter this.

TLDR: other than the one hidden stage accessed by pratfalling out of the waterfall boss, and a couple of obscure quasi-glitch skips, the map's actually linear. Will look around a bit more in case.
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