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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:57 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:45 pm 


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I agree completely with Perikles. It's not that I don't think CAVE is one of the most capable developers, but them having 4 times more games represented than any other developer is really extreme. In general, the list is highly biased towards danmaku and also manic shmups. That doesn't make the list wrong, there is no right or wrong, but it is possible to attempt to gain some perspective and critical eye and try to understand the merits behind a more balanced list. First of all you have to know about a certain game before you can vote for it, and it's easy to forget that this genre is so much more expansive than just CAVE, Yagawa, Gradius and Ikaruga. What you can try to do is play more games and gain perspective. There's many ways and reasons you can enjoy a shmup.

It is a slightly better representation than last years list, but the fundamental bias is still there. There are so many "hardcore" games that demands enormous skill and time investment to master.

Perikles wrote:
Almost one third of the games are from Cave, modern games are disproportionally represented considering their quantity


Exactly. This reminds me of for example the top list of movies on IMDB, which is absolutely garbage, full on modern hollywood trash that would lead people to believe that's what good movies have to offer, when exceptional movies have actually been made for over 100 years and all over the world, and not just in English speaking countries at all. Of course, shmups are a bit different since they're so niché (and CAVE is not exactly like mainstream trash in movies) but the general idea is the same, we're ignoring the rich volume of older eras just to put in more modern shmups, and it's incredibly biased and would easily lead newcomers to think that this is what good shmups have to offer
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:04 pm 


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M.Knight wrote:
I prefer and have voted for Shiki 3 myself mostly for its scoring system that moves a bit away for grazing, though I wish it had 2's atmosphere. Out of curiosity, what do you prefer in Shiki 2 compared to the two others?

To me part I feels kind of underdeveloped. I can see what the developers had in mind, but it's a little rough around the edges, and it's part II where I feel the different ideas and components of the game are really coming together. Part III on the other hand almost feels like a sequel only in name and storyline, as its scoring system, while perfectly fine by itself, moves it quite some way away from the earlier games.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:30 pm 


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chum,

Situation might be that people really do play all those games, yet still put Cave or Raizing or Treasure in top... As i say, nearly always most interesting parts of such voting lists is parts that are left out of top :lol:

Console exclusives and indie/doujin games are always somewhere below in these threads; even if you love ChoRenSha or Mecha Ritz or Hellsinker so much, you still have R-Type/Battle Garegga/Raiden DX/whatever, would you really give higher votes for less popular titles just for the sake of it?


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:59 pm 


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I give a few games a personal bump myself, even if other games I might perceive as being "better." Though like many say, after 15 or so games, the bottom half of the list can get fairly indistinct as I try to place things in order.

I was a little too wary to try the "top 15" votes (averse to change lol), so I hope that more people warm up to that style to see if it might be a worthwhile change in the formula. I myself nonetheless enjoyed distinguishing some games on the Honorable Mentions, one of which (Hishouzame) actually made it on the list!
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:01 pm 


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@Chum, hey there's at least 10 Touhou games in your list... :lol:

-

Also people don't be hipsters, so many Cave games are awesome the might of their library won't be defeated until a new dev crushes that record (likely not happening this century).
I mean 14 years straight topping the votes isn't because people don't know/try anything else, it's because Cave have crushed the 'competition' with a huge number of quality/top-tier titles, other devs can't beat that, this is why the Top 25 always smells of Cave (a damp cave!)

Why not ask Nifty for a Cave-less Top 25 (and revision of previous years)...and realize the domination of Raizing with such a small library in comparison, is actually more suspicious than the cave-everywhere situation?

Sooo...no-cave-no-raizing Top 25 maybe?

Or just deal with Cave being #1 (by overall presence/rankings) even if that's not the reality you'd want? :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:22 pm 


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People really can't read, can they? He's not saying there's anything wrong with the list being majority cave. He's saying it's not "well-rounded" because of it.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:27 pm 


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Actually only my first sentence was addressed to Chum.

Then I addressed people in general who complain about too much Cave, invoking the disproportionate number of good titles in their library.

Read.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:39 pm 


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Genre veterans already know what they like, so I've always thought these lists were more useful to new players. Anything that gets votes is probably worth taking a look, top-25, honorable mentions, or otherwise, it's basically a giant recommendations list. At least that's how I used it back in the mid-2000s.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:43 pm 


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different people like different cave games and almost everyone likes a few cave games
there are enough of them to take over HMs big time but not so many that they would only get a few votes each
if everyone votes even only the 3 or 4 they like the most they still end up taking most of the honorable mentions because the other hipster picks are way less concentrated

unless everyone goes full "fuck cave" trap mode then it will keep happening over and over


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:21 pm 


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The most wrong thing about this list is the utter lack of Parodius in the top 25 or even the honorable mentions.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:37 pm 


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qmish wrote:
chum,
Situation might be that people really do play all those games


We must have a different idea of what playing "all those games" entails because no. This isn't even debatable in any sense.

Xyga wrote:
@Chum, hey there's at least 10 Touhou games in your list... :lol:


Did you have a point to make...? I never said people shouldn't put the games they think are best on their list (which is what I did)

Quote:
Also people don't be hipsters, so many Cave games are awesome the might of their library won't be defeated until a new dev crushes that record (likely not happening this century).


Yeah, I'm sure Perikles is just a damn hipster... do you really think you should take such a silly route to defend CAVE who has 1/3 of the game represented...? FWIW I'm a CAVE fan easily, they made some of the best games ever in any genre. I'm just not a mindless fanboy which you are trying awfully hard to come across as right now.

Quote:
I mean 14 years straight topping the votes isn't because people don't know/try anything else


I hope noone's saying people aren't trying "anything" else. But compared to exhausting CAVE's library how many do you think exhausts Taito's, Konami's, etc?

Quote:
it's because Cave have crushed the 'competition' with a huge number of quality/top-tier titles, other devs can't beat that, this is why the Top 25 always smells of Cave (a damp cave!)


Understandable opinion but not everyone agrees that CAVE is better than everyone else by such an enormous amount. 18 games compared to others who have at most 4 represented. Some people don't even think CAVE is the best dev to begin with *gasp* hipters. I can't agree that history turned out the way it did because CAVE just happened to be that much better, either, that's really shortsighted, the genre in general just went out of style so CAVE that catered to hardcore players managed to survive. there's a lot more to shmups than doing things the CAVE way and preferring other kinds of shmups is still valid.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:42 pm 


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chum wrote:
Did you have a point to make...? I never said people shouldn't put the games they think are best on their list (which is what I did)

I just thought it's funny after seeing your top that you're the one talking about the cave bias and people should play more -other- games. Nothing more.

chum wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure Perikles is just a damn hipster... do you really think you should take such a silly route to defend CAVE who has 1/3 of the game represented...? FWIW I'm a CAVE fan easily, they made some of the best games ever in any genre. I'm just not a mindless fanboy which you are trying awfully hard to come across as right now.

Did I go against what perikles said? The only thing I defend about Cave is that many of their games are indeed very good/top tier. My point is they've made a lot of these good ones, Bananamatic refined it well: they've made enough different and good. That's why they're all over the lists every year.

chum wrote:
I hope noone's saying people aren't trying "anything" else. But compared to exhausting CAVE's library how many do you think exhausts Taito's, Konami's, etc?

But is it as pleasing to grind taito and konami's libraries? are their games fit for the levels of entusiasm a Ketsui or a Futari can generate to a broad audience? Cave didn't just make a wide variety of good games, they've made very attractive games.
I'm not qualifying them as the Hollywood of shmups though, because most of their games are good, stating otherwise would be hypocrisy. But no fanboyism whatsoever, I've played damn shmups for well over 30 years, I can tell that of course Cave deserve the awards.
Seems to have been a thing for many years already, the forums vote plenty of Cave and inevitably criticize the results, "blah blah blah too much Cave again" it's so damn hipster it's cringey, so I'm saying just give it a break there's good reasons why Cave's so present and popular, why not deal with it?

chum wrote:
Understandable opinion but not everyone agrees that CAVE is better than everyone else by such an enormous amount. 18 games compared to others who have at most 4 represented. Some people don't even think CAVE is the best dev to begin with *gasp* hipters. I can't agree that history turned out the way it did because CAVE just happened to be that much better, either, that's really shortsighted, the genre in general just went out of style so CAVE that catered to hardcore players managed to survive. there's a lot more to shmups than doing things the CAVE way and preferring other kinds of shmups is still valid.

You didn't get the point yet, 'not everyone' and 'some' don't apply, and it's not about stating Cave made 'the best shmups period' either. Again whether you like it or not their status and weight is perfectly explainable by that combinantion of quality, accessibility, and NUMBERS.
I'd bet the 24th Top 25 will still have losts of Cave, unless they're dethroned by a great new prolific dev, or 2~3 that kind of create a new synergy/age for shmups.
Actually if that doesn't come to happen, there could be even MOAR Cave in the top.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:59 pm 


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I like the list. Well balanced. Old and new well represented. Many of my choices are there.

So.....how well does DDP DOJ run in MAME? I've tried it on my aging machine and ìt seems OK-ish. When displaying the frame rate it can dip to 90% and the music sounds a bit off. Not ever played this before. Is this par for the course on MAME or does it run better on a newer PC?

I know it's asking a lot - but it would be great to have a followup piece outlining the ways to play the top 25 inc. MAME, ports and, if any, those still PCB only.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:20 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Did I go against what perikles said? The only thing I defend about Cave is that many of their games are indeed very good/top tier.

Considering that I conceded not once but twice that I understand why Cave games in general and so many of them in particular are so popular I do think that you're refuting an argument that I never made. This is the original comment I replied to:

Herr Schatten wrote:
I must say that this is a surprisingly well-rounded list, probably one of the best we ever had when it comes to representing different facets of the genre.

Even if we assume that Cave titles are invariably flawless, and that indeed no other developer is able to fill out their particular department to some extent, the genre does not only - or even mostly - consist of Cave games. It's the opposite, in fact: almost every shooter is not from Cave. The sub-genre that Cave specialized in is numerally speaking a minority. Thus, I find that a list which spends almost a third of its place with Cave games is neither well-rounded nor particularly representative. That - and only that - was my argument. The quality of Cave games is entirely irrelevant to this point of the discussion. I also didn't assess, value, judge the list. I was merely pointing out that the selection of games is saliently lopsided.

Stating such an obvious fact seems to be rather offensive, however, and is apparently "hipster". Guess I have to live with that.

Xyga wrote:
But is it as pleasing to grind taito and konami's libraries? are their games fit for the levels of entusiasm a Ketsui or a Futari can generate to a broad audience? Cave didn't just make a wide variety of good games, they've made very attractive games.

How would you even know that Taito or Konami didn't make "very attractive games" without trying them out first? Auspices? Throwing bones? Having a benevolent, omniscient crystal ball nearby?
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:54 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
I just thought it's funny after seeing your top that you're the one talking about the cave bias and people should play more -other- games. Nothing more.

How is it funny? Have you misunderstood me? I never said there's anything wrong with having biases towards certain developers, only that the overall list is extremely biased which isn't even arguable. If it was full of Touhou games I would say the same thing, that ther is a clear bias. Besides my list is objectively coming from a more experienced standpoint than most other voters, so there is no need for me to wonder how much my own bias is firmly due to some clear inadequacy or lack of knowledge and understanding, I have a good idea of that already. I think I know why I voted for what I did and I think I have a decent idea of the options, but I'm saying there's always a lot of room to improve and have a broader understanding of the genre as a whole which certainly does not end at the most popular danmaku games. Even a lot of obscure PC and yes, even console games that nobody seems to play can actually be really exceptional, not to mention the vast amounts of arcade games that nobody wants to vote for.

Xyga wrote:
"blah blah blah too much Cave again" it's so damn hipster it's cringey

The only one cringey here is you for mindless fanboyism when CAVE is actually blatantly overrepresented. If you cannot even grasp that some people do not think CAVE is this god of shmups that is waaaaaay better than everyone else then there is no hope for you, fanboy.

Xyga wrote:
You didn't get the point yet

Yeah you're making such great points about how CAVE is far beyond everyone else just because you said so and that everyone who dares point out that the list actually isn't all that well rounded is a cringey hipster. Oh and that you can't be a fanboy (even though you're fangasming so hard it's painful) because you played for 30 years. nice 1. Get over yourself and let people critize the obvious. Doesn't matter how long you've played.

Perikles wrote:
Xyga wrote:
But is it as pleasing to grind taito and konami's libraries? are their games fit for the levels of entusiasm a Ketsui or a Futari can generate to a broad audience? Cave didn't just make a wide variety of good games, they've made very attractive games.

How would you even know that Taito or Konami didn't make "very attractive games" without trying them out first? Auspices? Throwing bones? Having a benevolent, omniscient crystal ball nearby?


Must b those 30 years.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:06 pm 


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It's really a trend, people reading way too much in my posts or getting offended assuming I was responding to them when I wasn't.

@perikles: but ok I'll answer briefly saying just this: the only thing I would disagree with what you said is that you seem to assume Cave games are so liked and overrepresented in the polls because people don't know enough of everything else.
I think that isn't true.
And I've tried to explain why I think the Cave polls overdose happens, if it doesn't get through or you don't agree, well fine, whatever.

@Chum: ok i'll put myself at your level: thank you for showing how much of a stupid Touhoutard kid you are.
EDIT; there offense is intended. :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:09 pm 


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Touhoutard kid that is more experienced and skilled than you will ever be at CAVE, raizing, or whatever else you like, grandpa, even though I don't even play them. How does it feel to have amounted to nothing and to have no real say despite 30 yrs of experience??
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:14 pm 


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Something I find interesting is that this year Mushihimesama and Mushihimesama Futari are the only two CV1K games in the top 25. I'm also pleasantly surprised by the rise of Progear and Dangun Feveron, they usually have no trouble reaching the honorable mentions but I didn't expect to see them in the top 25.

For what it's worth the amount of CAVE in my list dropped significantly​ from last year due to some games I decided to give a try in 2016 (and because I shortened my list by 20 entries).

There's no question that this list isn't representative of all shmups, or that CAVE is overrepresented in this respect. CAVE is overrepresented because many people voted for their games. Many people voted for their games because the type of person who votes in this poll tends to like CAVE's output and similarly-styled games. Not much more to it than that.

Xyga wrote:
It's really a trend, people reading way too much in my posts or getting offended assuming I was responding to them when I wasn't.

Maybe you should communicate who you're talking to more effectively then. There's a quote button for a reason.

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So.....how well does DDP DOJ run in MAME?

As well as anything, it shouldn't slow down (aside from emulated slowdown) on any computer that isn't ancient.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:29 pm 


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Shepardus wrote:
Maybe you should communicate who you're talking to more effectively then. There's a quote button for a reason.

I was addressing the - usual - discontent at the Cave overload with a slightly different opinion and telling why.

I wasn't really conscious though that it's dangerous to do so when there's people like Chum in the thread who will go bat shit over it (kid got issues), yeah...
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:39 pm 


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Yeah let's pretend those earlier posts you made don't exist. Why don't you edit them out while you're at it? people should stay quiet, not be hipsters, and deal with the situation instead of calmly state that the cave bias on the list is quite extreme and clear, just because you think so. if you're going back on that you may want to edit your posts. I've read them, I understand them, I've responded to them and you're an arrogant dumbass.

of course a more reasonable thing to do would be for you to deal with the observations being made and arguments being laid out suggesting that the list is in fact incredibly one-sided, but no I guess it's much easier to jsut tell everyone else to deal with it instead of doing it yourself. fanboy
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:49 pm 


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Listen, you didn't get shit of what I said (read the posts: that my line dumbass) and have copiously insulted me so I don't have any patience to talk with a miserable dick like you. Go sniff your own poop or something.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:04 am 



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Xyga wrote:
But is it as pleasing to grind taito and konami's libraries?

You mean the games that have been multilooped to infinity and/or optimized extremely efficiently over the years? I'd say so.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:22 am 


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Xyga wrote:
Listen, you didn't get shit of what I said (read the posts: that my line dumbass) and have copiously insulted me so I don't have any patience to talk with a miserable dick like you. Go sniff your own poop or something.



Obviously I understood what you've said, if anything I'm wondering if you did. What came before your initial post were some pretty decent arguments why the list isn't actually all that well rounded, nothing more nothing less. noone ever saying anything bad about CAVE, or saying that they don't deserve it, or saying there's too much CAVE, or whatever. Then let's see what your post contains:

Immediately after laughing at my list for no good reason (indicating that you missed the point of my post) you defend CAVE from imaginary critics, assuming them to be hipsters. Who are these critics supposed to be if not me and Perikles? Read the damn thread. Why did we need to be told that CAVE really are that awesome and blah blah blah...? We both understand CAVE's place at the top. your initial post was nothing more than [img]oldmanyellsatcloud

You said this:
Quote:
I mean 14 years straight topping the votes isn't because people don't know/try anything else


It's not that people aren't trying anything else so much that people could always be trying more of that something else. That includes everyone, broadening your perspective is always a good thing.

Why I threw an insult at you after that should be pretty obvious. Why I kept doing it? Lol have some goddamn self reflection you sad fanboy,

Quote:
"blah blah blah too much Cave again" it's so damn hipster it's cringey


LOL who is that supposed to refer to? Read the thread, could only refer to me and Perikles. I can assure you we were not just saying blah blah too much cave. But since that's what you were seeing, among the other delusions in your posts I decided to give up, seems pretty natural IMO. I guess I could've been nicer but it's not like you've been very nice to me either???

So yeah this touhoutard clearly has a lot more sense in him than grandpa CAVE over here, but feel free to stay mad all these imaginary "waah too much caev in the charts" ppl if you want.

I mean I've already seen your behaviour so I already know you're not one for a reasonable dialogue and that you're just gonna see some bullshit in this post that wasn't even there to begin with but at least now I've said this much.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:36 am 


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:40 am 


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I'm just extremely happy to see Radiant Silvergun top that overrated thing called Ikaruga. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:53 am 


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No Hishouzame (or any other Toaplan besides Batsugun) in the top 25 is a bit disappointing.

Top 5 games (without order) are identical to mine so happy about that ofc..
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:20 am 


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Joined: 07 Dec 2013
Posts: 353
Location: Taunton
Xyga wrote:
(kid got issues), yeah...


Said the grown adult with the anime child avatar.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:24 am 


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Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Posts: 2793
how about a top 25 with no anime


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:47 am 


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Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 2381
Location: Airstrip One
Kollision wrote:
I'm just extremely happy to see Radiant Silvergun top that overrated thing called Ikaruga. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


fite me irl m8
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