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 Post subject: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:03 am 


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Voting

Discussion Thread

Talk about your own list, other lists, or others talking about other lists here, in order to keep the vote thread pristine. Voting queries can be brought up here or sent to me personally.

Past results:
13th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2015
12th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2014
11th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2013
10th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2012
9th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2010ish
8th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2009
7th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2008
6th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2007
5th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2006
4th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2005
3rd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2004
2nd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2003
Inaugural Top 25 Results: through 2002

Nifty wrote:
incognoscente wrote:
To link directly to your ballot (or any other post):
  1. On the post in question, look at the upper right where the date stamp is. (I hope this is consistent across all themes.)
  2. Right-click on the little sheet of paper to the left of the Posted: text and copy the link address.
  3. Make a link in your commentary post using that destination.


Wow geez I don't even have my list ready this year, better work on that next
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Last edited by Nifty on Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:34 am 


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From the voting thread:
Quote:
03. Shmups released in calendar year 2016 are not eligible for consideration.

Should this be 2017? It said 2016 last year.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:40 am 


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I actually did change that, I just didn't change it enough because I'd copied the post from two years ago because I keep forgetting I can't quote to copy my tags from locked threads

fix'd
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:08 am 


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Cool. One other thing: Your "more convenient guide" link should link to http://pastebin.com/TDWGUuBC (it currently links to http://pastebin.com/edit/TDWGUuBC which asks for a login).

Thanks for running this for yet another year! I'm pleased to see the short list option - I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to take advantage of it, but I'm glad the option's there. I'm not sure about that 0.7 multiplier applied to short lists, though - unless I'm misunderstanding something, it seems like that would incentivize adding ten random other games into a short list to make the 15 count more. I appreciate that it's hard to please everyone, but I wonder if that's the right compromise to make here.
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You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:42 pm 


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Does Downwell count?
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:15 pm 



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eebrozgi wrote:
Does Downwell count?

It doesn't fit into any of the eligible sub-genres listed.

Shepardus wrote:
unless I'm misunderstanding something, it seems like that would incentivize adding ten random other games into a short list to make the 15 count more.

And what is the reward that you think there's an incentive for?
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:14 pm 


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Quote:
The amount of weighted credit given to each game on your list is based on its percentage out of the total sum of all games present. For example, a list full of nothing but 1's will mean equal weighting is given to everything, as will a list of 25's. A basic ranked list will therefore take the following format:

The highest weighting any one game is allowed to have is 0.2. This means that the total sum must add up to at least 5 times the value of the highest number present (so a list starting in 25 must add up to at least 125, etc.). Note that lists do not need to start with 25, end with 1, or be totally linear - beyond this ruling, you are free to adjust them as you see fit.


If the reason for all this being needlessly complicated is to stop idiots from voting, then it's working. I'm out :D


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:58 am 


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Just number it 1-25 like a lot of people do. No reason to be fancy, have fun with it.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:12 am 


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Well, I still don't feel eligible to vote, to be honest.
People around here seem a lot more knowledgable about the genre than me. I'd just be listing the games I had the most fun with.
As I've become more skilled, for example, I've realised how some games that I really enjoyed have pretty bad scoring mechanics and that would push them a lot further down my list now. I feel I'm still in the middle of my journey of knowing what makes a good shmup.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:25 am 


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I'd take a game that I have a lot of fun playing but which has somewhat broken scoring mechanics (counterstop, infinite milking, etc.) over one which is more theoretically sound but doesn't capture my attention. If it doesn't affect my own enjoyment of the game I see no reason why it should affect my vote for said game. To me, part of the value of votes like this is to reveal what the shmup-playing populace cares about. If all the top results have terrible graphics but insanely complex scoring mechanics that shows that people value complexity of scoring over graphics. If they instead have cool flashy graphics but broken and frustrating scoring mechanics, that illustrates the opposite. I find that sort of insight more valuable than the list a panel of genre experts would produce judging games by the criteria they consider important. Those criteria are probably different from most other people feel is important to them, nor is it necessarily the case that I should care about the same things they care about. If I were a player new to the genre looking for some recommendations for good entry points (new players are regularly directed to this list among others), or a developer seeking to appeal to the shmup playerbase, I'd want to see the games people actually enjoy, not the ones they think they would enjoy if they played like the most hardcore subset of players, nor the ones experts told them they should enjoy.
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You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:14 pm 


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did a short list this year and with similar weighting it definitely gives a more even distribution of weight than it did with my 25 list (where I'd have around 10 games with a [1] weight).

games that weren't included in my top 15 that would have otherwise been in my top 25 were crimzon clover, strikers 1999, mecha ritz, psyvariar 2, esp ra.de., battle bakraid, kingdom grandprix, graidus 3, raiden dx, and mars matrix. i.e. games that I go back to every once in awhile attempting clears (or for nostalgia purposes after having already cleared them) but not ones that I continually try to improve my score for personal gain or shmup high score boards.

progear is still my number 1 as I've been sinking countless hours into it since 2013.
muchi muchi pork made a jump because I spent a very generous amount of time with it again last year and fell in love. I still have to get past stage 2-3 in 1.01 mode.
APB and dimahoo dropped down a bit with thunder dragon 2 making a little bit of a climb.

the rest are pretty standard.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:38 pm 


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Main change is spending more time with Kyukyoku Tiger on Mega Drive, which I think I'm loving more than the arcade version. Not that it makes a difference, but it's pushed my nostalgia for the arcade Twin Cobra out. A few wobbles ironing out nostalgia elsewhere too.

Also brought in some honourables, split between two main camps - titles personally special for whatever reason, and stuff I've spent a fair amount of time with this year. But in each case I don't think is quite "right" for a top 25 slot. Sorry Wing Force, it was fun but I don't think it's going to be a regular thing :cry:

Might be a bit of movement for next year, a few PC and 360 titles I haven't spent much (or any!) time with that I intend to rectify soon.

clippa wrote:
I'd just be listing the games I had the most fun with.


And there is something wrong with this why?

As long as you meet the appreciation entry criteria, which is probably as strict or as wooly as you decide it should be, get stuck in!
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:50 pm 


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Clippa, here's a quote from the rules:
Quote:
Your list can contain the games you think are the best overall, the most influential, most personally enjoyable, most underrated, etc.

Personal enjoyment is perfectly fine. I usually go the underrated route, with a few guilty pleasures tossed in. And as always, try not to take internet popularity contests so seriously.

I think when someone is jumping in to any hobby, they want immediate recognition in that hobby and pay a bit too close attention to what will give them "cred". But remember, by playing shmups we are already parting ways with mainstream gaming so there's no reason to start sheeping along now.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:36 pm 


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...

Back to shmups. Battle Garegga has a new home port! Will it be enough to secure the top position?
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:58 pm 


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What new shmups were released in 2016? I can think of Blue Revolver, Mecha Ritz: Steel Rondo, and IKUSAAAAAAAN!, but I probably missed something.
Jeneki wrote:
Battle Garegga has a new home port! Will it be enough to secure the top position?

Given Battle Garegga's track record in past results, it sure needs the help!
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NTSC-J wrote:
You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:26 am 


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Psshh. Garegga has been doing fine :)


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:30 pm 


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Lots of rearrangement this year, probably the most difficult pick.

Jeneki wrote:
...

Back to shmups. Battle Garegga has a new home port! Will it be enough to secure the top position?


By looking at the game modes and remixed tracks, it is.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:23 pm 


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No changes from last year's list for me, but I'll give it some thought in the next few days. :P
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:11 am 


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These were the others I consider for honorable mentions:
Parsec47
Torus Trooper
Night Striker
OutZone
Ketsui
Dimahoo
Strikers 1945 II
Gunbird 2
Metal Black
Mecha Ritz
ChoRenSha
Raiden DX
Parodius Da!

Some of them I know I really like, but I need to actually play them more (like Mecha Ritz, which didn't run well on my comp) though my main list and honorable mentions also has just a few games I played for under 10h.

Also in the last year I came to realize I don't actually like Psikyo as much as I thought so that's why I had to drop GB2/StrikersII from even HB, they are great games in their own ways but I don't find them enjoyable for extended play especially not because the first loop is annoying when you can play the 2nd. Only DRagon Blaze avoided this significant problem for me.

as much as I advocated smaller lists, given the option to I would rather make a bigger list myself, partly since it would look like I'm "just another touhoufag" otherwise when I actually care about all STG.

there is still a lot of big names I would want to try that I haven't like SDOJ or radiant silvergun
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:44 am 


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qmish wrote:
I mean lack of self confidence for Shmup voting, not UK stuff


It's an honest statement. I have my own favourite games, but I wouldn't consider myself eligible to vote in the top 25 shmups ever poll, either. I simply don't feel that I have the broader insight that I consider required.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:20 am 


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:roll: ok maybe

Though I may vote just go the reason that I may mention some titles that no one else would


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:47 am 


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Is anyone truly qualified to judge the top 25 shmups ever? Even Perikles isn't so experienced with 21st shmups.
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You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:49 am 


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#screweligibility


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:54 am 


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You could argue that, but there is a fine line. :)


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:10 am 


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At least we don't see random casual indie shmups with healthbar and touchscreen buttons from smartphones in voting :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:25 am 


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As long as each vote is considered and heartfelt and not packed with filler to make up the 25 then it's valid.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:43 am 


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brb Changing my top vote to Cobra Command. :P

(edit: not really)
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:45 am 


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List is currently identical to last year, may tweak it a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:41 pm 


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Surprised and saddened there isn't more love for Radiant Silvergun. I've played a lot of shooters and it still stands as the best I've played, but that is just me.

On another note, I should hopefully be able to wrangle up at least 15 worthy games for this year's list. As I've said, I've played a lot more, but I feel like I have only played around 20ish enough to say with certainty how good it is/is not.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:45 pm 


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Radiant Silvergun is a great game, but I think a lot of people would consider it overrated considering the ridiculous amount of praise it's been getting through the years, overshadowing many other shooters from the same era that are just as good. Even then, it did make #17 last year.
I'd expect Cave to go through a similar backlash soon, if they are not already.


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