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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:19 am 


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Radiant Silvergun's a one-of-a-kind game, which works both in its favor and against it. It plays very differently from most other shmups and doesn't offer the same things many people seek in shmups. It's a very methodic game, heavy on planning and weapon management, and scoring is closely tied to survival gameplay which forces players to engage with the scoring system even if they don't like it. No matter how well-executed that is, it's not going to sit well with players seeking nimble movement and straightforward but improvisation-heavy dodging.

There could be a backlash against CAVE, but that would be for the opposite reason, which is that people have seen their style too much and are tired of it.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:19 am 



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See I bloody love bakraid, bit of a novice, happen to agree with angry man about brexit - too important to trust fuckwits with a decision.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:04 pm 


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Jolly two-weeks-remaining bumparooney. I haven't been sending out reminders for unfinished lists yet, I'll do that in another week or so.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:44 pm 



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My list is nearly the same as last time. Raiden II up, DBAC down, Wolflame replaced with Raiden IV (I feel a bit bad about that last one -- objectively, R4 is pretty flawed, and I've criticized it quite a few times -- but it still entices me to play it a lot more than a lot of stuff I consider objectively "better").


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:23 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:53 pm 


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Have to say that I feel a trifle uneasy for having so many Irem/Konami/Toaplan games on my list. I thought about imposing some restrictions à la "only X games per developer/Y games per series" on myself, yet ultimately it seems like a daft decision. I would love to give a few other lesser known quality games a spot (like, say, Exed Exes, Grid Seeker, Kidou Soukou Dion, Mad Shark, Sol-Deace, Thunder Cross II or Violent Soldier) but can't justify tossing something out in their stead (although I might swap Zanac for something else now that I think about it...). Granted, most people have a clear bias towards a certain selection of games/developers/series which is not surprising since some companies do cater to particular interests extraordinarily well, I nonetheless always enjoy varied lists with a bit of everything in them (like Kollision's or Mero's). I'll think about it next year. Or not.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:55 am 


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I managed to extensively play 20 shooters over the past few months, some I have been playing for years, some I just played for the first time in the past few months. But out of those, I narrowed it down to 15. Next year I will definitely have 25. Would be surprised if a few of these on my current list get bumped down or up by other games I plan on playing. Some STGs I'm looking forward to playing for the first time over the next year that seem to have a change of making it on the list:

Espgaluda
Espgaluda II
Eschatos
Akai Katana
Dodonpachi SaiDaiOuJou
Dragon Blaze
Crimzon Clover
Ibara
Zero Gunner 2
Psyvariar 2
Salamander 2


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:15 am 


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Playing a lot of shooters last year is sure to switch up a few of my selections, myself. I feel personally like my taste comes out fickle that it seems like a third of my selections rotate in and out every year, while a few standouts that I can always come back to remain (God bless you Darius Gaiden!!!).

It's funny to see how my votes were when I was less familiar with the genre; I find it hard to believe now that I voted for Under Defeat (a game that I still like quite a bit), back when I more or less credit-fed everything and didn't care one whit about 1CCing games. And Darius II! Man, what was I thinking?

EmperorIng's 2013 Vote wrote:
A list that might/will definitely betray my lack of experience in the genre


I always get pulled into whether or not to list games I consider to be out-n-out masterpieces, or list games with more decidedly kuso elements that I nonetheless adore (I guess Darius Gaiden fits under that one!).
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:10 pm 


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Removed the politics stuff.

I feel Silvergun is a victim of 'too popular to be cool now'.

I expect Garegga to win again, I don't really think it deserves it due to the idiotic rank control. A game can't be #1 for me if part of survival depends on suiciding, it just goes against the genre for me. I still love the game, but no way would I put it at #1.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:37 am 


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system11 wrote:

I feel Silvergun is a victim of 'too popular to be cool now'.

I expect Garegga to win again, I don't really think it deserves it due to the idiotic rank control. A game can't be #1 for me if part of survival depends on suiciding, it just goes against the genre for me. I still love the game, but no way would I put it at #1.


I sometimes wonder that myself. In terms of balancing, gameplay variety, scoring, and presentation I feel like Radiant Silvergun is a definite standout in the best way possible, and it baffles me that a game like Batsugun or Raiden Fighters Jet would rank higher than it. Even most Cave games are vastly overrated imo.

In regards to Garegga it is a game that I absolutely have fallen in love with the more I play it. I think its scoring system can be a little ass backwards at times, but it isn't a game I am heavily concerned with high scores anyway. In terms of production and design it is amazing. Funny enough my biggest gripe is the metallic colored bullets which result in at least 2 or 3 cheap deaths every time I play through it. I know this can be altered in the Saturn version, but yeah.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:20 pm 


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system11 wrote:
I feel Silvergun is a victim of 'too popular to be cool now'.

I would need to play it more to decide whether or not I'd like to vote for it. Even though I own the Saturn port :oops:

As a shmup package, there is so much there to enjoy in terms of sheer content: lots of exciting boss fights, each attacking in different and creative ways, tied to some very spectacle-laden stages. Though some of that spectacle works against it when you have levels overstuffed with enemies that make it hard to know what is going on or where to dodge.

However, that amount of content can work against it with both the weapons forcing a very methodical play through the early stages to be best situated to survive the later ones: I have tended to ignore the "chain only red" enemies to focus more on getting the secret chain bonuses, since it seems like that was the way the game was designed to increase your level appropriately. It can be fun, but slowly dismlantling the same few bosses early on can be a drag before you get to the next wall where you die repeatedly.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:04 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:26 pm 


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Gotta make sure I get that vote in today. Sorting through my lists always takes so long. :oops:

I wonder if Mars Matrix will still be in this year; not a whole lot of folks have talked about it versus last year!
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:37 pm 


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Final day? I thought 25th is final, haha :mrgreen: Though time zone stuff confusing as always etc


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:45 pm 


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Not really satisfied with my list, got to refine it the next time.
I'd only be comfortable with either a super-strict top 10, or an extra-large top 40~50 anyway, but I've decide to participate this year, just because.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:08 pm 


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EmperorIng wrote:
I wonder if Mars Matrix will still be in this year; not a whole lot of folks have talked about it versus last year!

People are Cave whores, what can we do? :P
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:00 pm 


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Perikles wrote:
[...] (although I might swap Zanac for something else now that I think about it...) [...]

And Varth it is! Very glad I cleared it at the last minute, would have been piqued to discover it one week later only to not be able to add it to the list.

I also have to declare that I am extremely impressed by Capcom's catalogue of shmups. As far as classic shooters are concerned, it is almost as strong as the iconic trio of Irem, Konami and Toaplan. Granted, those 1940 games are unseemly dry (especially 1942, 1943 Kai the least), but almost every other game is great (Forgotten Worlds, Gun.Smoke, Ultimate Ecology, Varth) and/or incredibly addictive (Exed Exes, Section Z, Side Arms, Vulgus).

Namco is another one of those unsung, unwitnessed heralds of old. I love that they didn't shy away from creating unique games such as Dragon Saber & Spirit, Dangerous Seed and Phelios. While I love the "mythological" shmups more due to their atmosphere, I do think that Dangerous Seed might be the best from an objective standpoint (unlike the rather dull MD port) - it even has some vague similarities to Omega Fighter (mostly visually). :mrgreen:

Also:
PENSIVE BIRRU 2016 wrote:
I didn't feel like altering my list just yet, but it might become slightly more inclusive of such games in the future.

Still missing Undeadline on your list, BIL. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:16 pm 


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^ I've been terribly delinquent on the ol' shumping this past year, unfortunately! Too much time in the den of idle pleasures that is Off Topic. ;3 Stuck with old favourites for now... MD Undeadline and Kyuukyoku Tiger are definitely in contention for when I get my act together.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:06 pm 



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i added mine.

nobody else here loves battle formula, huh? :cry: :cry: :cry:

i think i mostly did my list to kind of suggest my shooter taste (which is extremely console-centric) to people over in off-topic.

edit: aw, heck, i'm the only zas lover, too? :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:51 pm 


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I guess we all have our own personal favorites that not many other people share. :o
As for ZAS, I think the people who know about it mostly like it, but they might not be very numerous and/or wouldn't put it above the games in their actual top 15/25.
Well, I tried it a bit myself some time ago; kinda liked it but wasn't too impressed either. That said, I haven't given it much time to be honest.

I am in the middle of preparing a write-up on each game on my list to explain why I put them in my ranking. That said, a quick glance at it may easily reveal what tickles my fancy in a shmup. :mrgreen:

EmperorIng wrote:
I always get pulled into whether or not to list games I consider to be out-n-out masterpieces, or list games with more decidedly kuso elements that I nonetheless adore (I guess Darius Gaiden fits under that one!).

In my opinion, your ranking is yours, so you should definitely add a game that you like a lot even though it has objective flaws. Otherwise, the lists would be sterile and boring. As long as you had a lot of fun with a game and enjoyed it enough to consider giving it a place in the ranking, you should go for it.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:56 pm 



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M.Knight wrote:
I guess we all have our own personal favorites that not many other people share. :o
As for ZAS, I think the people who know about it mostly like it, but they might not be very numerous and/or wouldn't put it above the games in their actual top 15/25.
Well, I tried it a bit myself some time ago; kinda liked it but wasn't too impressed either. That said, I haven't given it much time to be honest.


http://ettugamer.com/2016/09/19/a-trip- ... o-gun-zas/

i wrote a review on zas that might sell you better on it.

i wonder if anyone here has really dug into the laydock series. i bring it up in the review, but have never had a chance to play it, myself. ZAS's excellence felt like totally out of the blue - it seemed like most of T&E soft's stuff wasn't very good and this is their only game boy game, but it's a real winner. i do have a big soft spot for the game boy and even kinda wanted to put aerostar on this list, but couldn't quite justify it - especially with THREE game boy games, already.


Last edited by kitten on Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:03 pm 


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Final adjustments sorted.

M.Knight wrote:
I guess we all have our own personal favorites that not many other people share.


And that's the best bit really, seeing how others appreciate lesser know or even lesser respected titles. Maybe finding kindred spirits or just games to visit/revisit.

Related: I'm sure there's usually someone else out there who likes Gekirindan... where are you? Let's be having you!
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:30 pm 


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@kitten : Wow, that's lengthy love letter, isn't it? :)
You seemed to have greatly appreciated the technical prowess behind the visuals as well as the soundtrack, but didn't write as much on the game's pacing. Is there any dead air in it?
In any case, I think I'll give it another go sometime soon.

@TransatlanticFoe : Oh yeah, totally agreed on the lesser known titles appearing on lists! :D

I actually like playing as the cute freckled redhead in Gekirindan (Anne IIRC) and I refuse to pick any other character (which may explain why I haven't 1CC'ed it yet. :lol: ), but there is no denying the few moments of dead air that prevent me from placing it in the top and more regularly putting credits into it. Losing the very useful napalm subweapon on death is also quite frustrating, but overall I think it is a fun yet kinda flawed game.
The BGM gimmick was pulled off pretty neatly as well I would say, with several nice tracks that do not feel like repeats of one another.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:08 pm 



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M.Knight wrote:
@kitten : Wow, that's lengthy love letter, isn't it? :)
You seemed to have greatly appreciated the technical prowess behind the visuals as well as the soundtrack, but didn't write as much on the game's pacing. Is there any dead air in it?
In any case, I think I'll give it another go sometime soon.


i had kind of made it too long a review, already, and didn't have a great deal of room to discuss the mechanics. imo, there is not much dead air. a few breezier parts, but relatively constant enemies or at least weird & unique hazards to navigate through. it's only 5 stages long, and has a lot of relatively console-type hori sensibilities despite being a vert. 3 of the 5 stages have quite a bit of geography to them, and it does come into the play rather than just acting as narrow borders on the sides of the screen.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:41 pm 


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M.Knight wrote:
EmperorIng wrote:
I always get pulled into whether or not to list games I consider to be out-n-out masterpieces, or list games with more decidedly kuso elements that I nonetheless adore (I guess Darius Gaiden fits under that one!).

In my opinion, your ranking is yours, so you should definitely add a game that you like a lot even though it has objective flaws. Otherwise, the lists would be sterile and boring. As long as you had a lot of fun with a game and enjoyed it enough to consider giving it a place in the ranking, you should go for it.

Different people like different things, so "objective flaws" aren't all that objective. One person's "dead air" may be another's "well-paced breathing room." I find that when people say "objectively good" around here they typically mean either "what others said I should like" or "what I think others will like." But I think a vote like this should be drawn from your personal taste. It's not your job to guess what others like - it's the poll's job to figure that out through the power of aggregation.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:57 pm 



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Shepardus wrote:
Different people like different things, so "objective flaws" aren't all that objective. One person's "dead air" may be another's "well-paced breathing room." I find that when people say "objectively good" around here they typically mean either "what others said I should like" or "what I think others will like." But I think a vote like this should be drawn from your personal taste. It's not your job to guess what others like - it's the poll's job to figure that out through the power of aggregation.


i agree with this. in my humble imho there is no true "objectivity" when it comes to reviewing entertainment.

not to say that building taste and comparing and contrasting with others is obsolete, i couldn't believe any more the opposite - it's just important to always realize that even the most concrete of foundations you can create in taste will still be subjective.


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:09 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
Different people like different things, so "objective flaws" aren't all that objective. One person's "dead air" may be another's "well-paced breathing room." I find that when people say "objectively good" around here they typically mean either "what others said I should like" or "what I think others will like."

I would argue that you can at least try to look at something in a more prosaic manner and exert your faculty of abstraction. You sometimes play a rich game that has an alluring scoring system, a stage/enemy design you would describe as impeccable, even with a sterling atmosphere, yet it fails to capture your interest. While another game, despite some apparent flaws such as flicker, slowdowns, sometimes questionable hit detection, weird difficulty spikes, completely useless power-ups etc. simply wins you over for one quality or another. Point in case: Raiden DX is without a doubt a superb game from both a survival and a scoring perspective, it has phenomenal visual appeal, lots of character, offers several modes, rewards both memorization-inclined players as well as dexterous ones and so on and so forth. However, I find the medal chaining to be maddening and the Expert course way too unnerving to be truly enjoyable since I'm sitting on the edge of my seat the entire time through due to the bullet speed. That's just my "problem", though, nothing I can blame the game for. It's only fair to differentiate between personal predilections and quantifiable traits of a game. The latter will naturally still lead to some debates ("The game has impossible checkpoints and is thus badly designed!" "No, it hasn't! Every checkpoint can be overcome with a bit of practice."), but it's evidently on another level than simply disliking a concept/artistic vision/sub-genre out of principle/personal preference.
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:55 am 


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kitten wrote:
not to say that building taste and comparing and contrasting with others is obsolete, i couldn't believe any more the opposite - it's just important to always realize that even the most concrete of foundations you can create in taste will still be subjective.


Perikles wrote:
I would argue that you can at least try to look at something in a more prosaic manner and exert your faculty of abstraction. You sometimes play a rich game that has an alluring scoring system, a stage/enemy design you would describe as impeccable, even with a sterling atmosphere, yet it fails to capture your interest. While another game, despite some apparent flaws such as flicker, slowdowns, sometimes questionable hit detection, weird difficulty spikes, completely useless power-ups etc. simply wins you over for one quality or another. Point in case: Raiden DX is without a doubt a superb game from both a survival and a scoring perspective, it has phenomenal visual appeal, lots of character, offers several modes, rewards both memorization-inclined players as well as dexterous ones and so on and so forth. However, I find the medal chaining to be maddening and the Expert course way too unnerving to be truly enjoyable since I'm sitting on the edge of my seat the entire time through due to the bullet speed. That's just my "problem", though, nothing I can blame the game for. It's only fair to differentiate between personal predilections and quantifiable traits of a game. The latter will naturally still lead to some debates ("The game has impossible checkpoints and is thus badly designed!" "No, it hasn't! Every checkpoint can be overcome with a bit of practice."), but it's evidently on another level than simply disliking a concept/artistic vision/sub-genre out of principle/personal preference.


Both excellent points - as kitten alluded to, it's important to recognize the distinction between objectivity and concreteness. Recognizing that your views may not be shared by others does not stop you from breaking down and analyzing the specific reasons behind your taste/distaste for a game. At the end of the day, it's your decision how much you care about certain positives/negatives and whether you even consider a certain factor to be a good thing or a bad thing.

For instance, one reason I like Dragon Blaze is the simplicity of its scoring system - it's more involved (specifically, more rhythmic and aggressive) than the basic "shoot enemies to get points," but 1) it's still easy to comprehend and trace deviations from your expected score back to the actions that caused those gains/losses, and 2) the game has the visual feedback to show you where your score is coming from (gold coins, tech bonuses). But some people like more complex scoring systems with many hidden variables that require the player to experiment and discover how things work. Neither's "objectively" better than the other, but that doesn't stop players from thinking about it and figuring out their taste beyond a nebulous "I like this game and I don't like that game."
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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:02 am 



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TransatlanticFoe wrote:
Final adjustments sorted.

M.Knight wrote:
I guess we all have our own personal favorites that not many other people share.


And that's the best bit really, seeing how others appreciate lesser know or even lesser respected titles. Maybe finding kindred spirits or just games to visit/revisit.

Related: I'm sure there's usually someone else out there who likes Gekirindan... where are you? Let's be having you!


I actually like Gekirindan. It's made a past list or two...


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 Post subject: Re: 14th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:40 pm 


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Haha geez, looks as though a flood of late votes is becoming a trend. I'll try to have the results up in a week or so since this'd already started late.
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