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 Post subject: How do you practice/train/improve?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:19 am 


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Hi all,
I'm just curious how others go about getting better at shmups (both individual games and in general). At the moment I'm working on the start of Donpachi level 4, and I've just got a mame save state at the start of the level, and load whenever I get hit... it seems to be working. Other than that I can think of finding videos, asking around here and elsewhere, playing shiroi danmakukun, reducing the speed a bit... So what's your preferred method?
-ReK


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:10 pm 


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Playing the game while its fun, not caring about most things, just having fun with the game.

Then when its no fun anymore, I quit.


Ok, not the best advice for getting good, but you will surely have some fun :)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:14 pm 



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keep on playing and playing and playing and playing and playing...... and stop for a while (less than a wekk), then play again and again and again and again....

or look at some superplay after you completed a game (credit feeding is ok, but don't abuse)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:16 pm 


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That's sound advice, Shatterhand. There's something very soulless about people who force themselves to practice at a game they don't necessarily enjoy just so that they can beat the score of somebody they'll never meet.
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 Post subject: Re: How do you practice/train/improve?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:21 pm 



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ReKleSS wrote:
Hi all,
I'm just curious how others go about getting better at shmups (both individual games and in general). At the moment I'm working on the start of Donpachi level 4, and I've just got a mame save state at the start of the level, and load whenever I get hit... it seems to be working. Other than that I can think of finding videos, asking around here and elsewhere, playing shiroi danmakukun, reducing the speed a bit... So what's your preferred method?
-ReK

lock yourself in aroom for a day, constantly playing sdmkun ( http://shinh.skr.jp/sdmkun/ ) untill you've attained the godly ability to dodge any kind of bullet spam the boss tosses at you while you're blindfolded and with your dick clamped.

I mean really, it's VERY awesome to have mad dodging skills :
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:30 pm 


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Cheers, Infested. This game is ace.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:17 pm 


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Shatterhand wrote:
Playing the game while its fun, not caring about most things, just having fun with the game.

Then when its no fun anymore, I quit.


Ok, not the best advice for getting good, but you will surely have some fun :)


Amen!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:17 pm 


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When I first get a new shooter I'll credit feed for awhile to become familliar with the game so I know what to expect. After that it's time to go for the 1cc. I try to just stick with one or two games at a time for a couple of hours after work each day. If I play too much it seems to make me do worse. Well, it's time to for me to go be very soulless while playing dodonpachi and try to beat MovingTarget's score. :twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:07 pm 


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Observe.
Experiment.
Learn from your mistakes.
Have fun playing. (If you aren't having fun, then you shouldn't be playing.)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:11 pm 


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Icarus wrote:
Observe.
Experiment.
Learn from your mistakes.
Have fun playing. (If you aren't having fun, then you shouldn't be playing.)


I think this sums it up pretty well. The last one is the most important one.

You can better learn from your mistakes by making replays of yourself playing and look at what you could/should be doing better.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:27 pm 


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If you stop playing as soon as you stop having fun then you're really gonna miss out. If theres a section you struggle with dont let it stop you from playing just because its no fun... if you dont hold out till you can overcome you'll never get any better, and you will always get less out of your games.

Edit :
and in the voice of that fanny from the cricket ad with the prodigy song...

"BRING IT ON!!!"

(mosquito fighter :P )
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 Post subject: Re: How do you practice/train/improve?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:37 pm 


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infested_ysy wrote:
lock yourself in aroom for a day, constantly playing sdmkun ( http://shinh.skr.jp/sdmkun/ ) untill you've attained the godly ability to dodge any kind of bullet spam the boss tosses at you while you're blindfolded and with your dick clamped.


Holy shit. That video is fucking beautiful. I'm in awe.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:45 pm 


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Nah, that doesn't have to be true unless you're on some sort of deadline. I probably only got to stage 4 of Guwange a handful of times and then it got rotated out of the cabinet because, at the time, I was buying more jamma boards than I could play. Now, after not even looking at the game for over a year, I can get to stage 5 very often and am showing much improvement. I attribute this to the level of pure fun that I am experiencing and nothing more. I actually perform a whole lot worse when my entertainment becomes less entertaining and more tedious.

Pa

*edit* This was in response to what Moving Target said.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:07 pm 


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SiKrAiKeN wrote:
Icarus wrote:
Observe.
Experiment.
Learn from your mistakes.
Have fun playing. (If you aren't having fun, then you shouldn't be playing.)


I think this sums it up pretty well. The last one is the most important one.

You can better learn from your mistakes by making replays of yourself playing and look at what you could/should be doing better.


Excellent advice!

When used under the right conditions, Mame can be quite a powerfull training tool if you really think about how easy it is to use gamesaves and replays. Use savestates to practice boss battles and any tricky spots you commonly die in, then use replays to watch where you fail in 1cc attempts (and go back and savestate to those areas to get better). Keep iterating over this method until you stop seeing any noticable improvements, take a break with some other games, and come back in a week and watch what happens.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:12 pm 


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You should pay attention to the posts of smart, scoreplay guys like Rando, 8.5, Rob, Icarus, Sikraiken, Raiden etc. Guys like this put good amounts of time and thought into games, so you can trust their opinions, etc.

Also, stick with one game at a time and try to understand how it works, read the ST, etc. Beat said game on a credit. The game will get more fun that way, in my experience.

Dave_K. wrote:
SiKrAiKeN wrote:
Icarus wrote:
Observe.
Experiment.
Learn from your mistakes.
Have fun playing. (If you aren't having fun, then you shouldn't be playing.)


I think this sums it up pretty well. The last one is the most important one.

You can better learn from your mistakes by making replays of yourself playing and look at what you could/should be doing better.


Excellent advice!

When used under the right conditions, Mame can be quite a powerfull training tool if you really think about how easy it is to use gamesaves and replays. Use savestates to practice boss battles and any tricky spots you commonly die in, then use replays to watch where you fail in 1cc attempts (and go back and savestate to those areas to get better). Keep iterating over this method until you stop seeing any noticable improvements, take a break with some other games, and come back in a week and watch what happens.


Also true.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:23 pm 


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My advice? Don't credit feed. Try to see how far you can get on one credit, and keep practicing like that. Even if you can't get very far (I can only reach Level 3 in Raiden III so far) you're still going to be learning how to survive with less lives/bombs since you won't be continuing after death.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:34 pm 


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I'll credit feed on day one just to see what I paid for. After that, it's one credit only.

Pa
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:57 pm 



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Well, it's all about praying.

I pray, pray, pray all possible gods. There's no such thing as understanding how a game works and then solving the stages for maximum score, or wannabe intellectual teenagers stuff like sitting down and practicing, or trying to use your brains. Now, i challenge everyone to prove that we have the ability to learn! I dare you!

Oh, and after playing a lot, i make the same mistake over and over again.Oh, and i also am absolutely inconsistent about the things i do.I mean, i'd be damned if i ever have done twice in a row in my life!

Also, i am a complete reactionary. I mean, i just sit there and wait for the bullet to come, then i move in a random direction. This is fun, trust me!Big brother told me* that thinking is bad, it is against our inner and purest true and normal human nature, trust me! I think i would have 24/7 fun if i could entirely remove my cognitive system! :D
























This post is meant to be full of evil sarcasm. On one side, i'd say that if you do the exact opposite of what i've written, it should suffice to become decent. On the other side, i'd say that the "no brains= true fun" mantra is getting annoying...

*Please put here any institution that aims at brainwashing people for "their own good", of course. Good of who? Of the institution, but said institutions will surely say that they're trying to improve your life, no?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:12 pm 


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ForteMP3 wrote:
My advice? Don't credit feed. Try to see how far you can get on one credit, and keep practicing like that. Even if you can't get very far (I can only reach Level 3 in Raiden III so far) you're still going to be learning how to survive with less lives/bombs since you won't be continuing after death.


Problem with the traditional approach is EDS (Early Death Syndrome). You will find yourself restarting the game over and over if you loose one ship early in the game on or if you aren't getting as good a score or as far as your last attempt. Leads to frustration and boredom.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:13 pm 


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@randos post
WORD!
and i think its really sad that you have to say that it was sarcasm in your post because there are a lot of people who really think so..... :shock:
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:22 pm 



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I've hooked up wires to my panel and stick, and whenever I die I get a powerful shock.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:33 pm 


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Randorama wrote:
On the other side, i'd say that the "no brains= true fun" mantra is getting annoying...


Mantra? Who said that? I bet everyone who's posted in this thread has been known to have all kinds of fun using their brains. Anyway I think you missed the real mantra and found the countermantra. I think it goes more like "Play the shit out of any video game you like and have as much fun as possible whilst obviously improving because you like it so much and are playing it all the time, but don't get so brained out on the thing that you have a stress induced heart attack because you don't play with toys quite as awesomely as the other kids. Most of whom you'll never even meet."

That sounds about good.

Pa
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:36 pm 



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PaCrappa wrote:
Randorama wrote:
On the other side, i'd say that the "no brains= true fun" mantra is getting annoying...


Mantra? Who said that? I bet everyone who's posted in this thread has been known to have all kinds of fun using their brains. Anyway I think you missed the real mantra and found the countermantra. I think it goes more like "Play the shit out of any video game you like and have as much fun as possible whilst obviously improving because you like it so much and are playing it all the time, but don't get so brained out on the thing that you have a stress induced heart attack because you don't play with toys quite as awesomely as the other kids. Most of whom you'll never even meet."

That sounds about good.

Pa


Can i hate you? Of course a standard reply from me would be yours (or yours would be mine...?Damn, i'm lost :? ), but at the 3456,4th time this topic resurfaces, i've been more oriented to write some acid sarcasm.

But then again, i'm a souless individual who doesn't stress too much about not making comparisons with others and having fun, (what's fun btw? I have it, but i'll be damned if this is uniquely defined for everybody!We'd need one and only drum beat!).

At any case, i still wonder who's the souless individual who spends his miserable life trying to beat a score of a person he'll never meet, my faggot* is already burning, all to Salem! :evil:

*Faggot originally addressed the stick used to fire up pires for witches, which usually were anyone who didn't abide by the standards of the nazi...ehr, small rural communities who had such nice practices like burning said people.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:12 pm 


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I think, in the end, people will play more of a game the more he enjoys it.

When I said to have fun, I never meant that when you hit a wall, the game becomes boring. Hell, I've died in a certain boss of Sonic Wings Special SO MANY TIMES... I mean, it was always the same, I'd get to that boss and get owned. ALWAYS. But I love that game, and being beaten by that boss never made me feel frustrated or bored, it just makes me feel wanting more, I wanted to know what the heck would appear after that boss.

And then one day I beated him.

In the other side, while playing Radiant Silvergun, I feel I have to KEEP my attention at the position of each red enemy or something, and this feels like a chore to me. THAT'S boring, that feels like work, not fun.. (for ME, someone else may find this incrdibly fun)... and at one point I had played Radiant Silvergun regularly because I wanted to be good at the "killer" shmup... up until one day I figured out... it wasnt me who sucked at the game, it was just that I didn't liked it!

I remember I had a friend who had Kid Chameleon on the Mega-Drive back at the old days... I also had access to this game, so I used to play it regularly. He was crazy about this game, he had draw MAPS in A3 paper sheets, which he had stored in the order of the levels and shit like that. I'd NEVER do anything like this, again, because it feels more like work than fun.

Or like what Dave K. described, when you keep restarting your game just because you made a mistake and restart all over again... this indeed leads to frustration and boredom... I have said this before, but I begun had a lote more of fun with shmups when I STOPPED doing that... and then my scores improved! (And I only begun doing that AFTER I came here to shmups.com... interesting, huh?)

I don't know what other people may think, but my PERSONAL (And I want to say again, PERSONAL) point is that you should be more worried about having fun with the game than worry about being good. Being good should be just the natural process of enjoying the game. I bet Randorama made his great scores because he enjoyed a lot the games he was playing... I am sure he scored many hours in the games he is good, but thats just because he likes those games (And probably have some free time to play them, heh). In the other hand, I doubt he could beat my scores of Zanac and Aleste 2, as he doesnt seem to like Compile games that much :) .

Diffferent people have different ways to have fun... my point is simple, play the game as much as you enjoy it, and when you don't enjoy it anymore, stop.

Quote:
At any case, i still wonder who's the souless individual who spends his miserable life trying to beat a score of a person he'll never meet


You will never meet him. He's just to busy trying to beat that score, so he doesnt have time to go to a web forum, or to have a social life. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:20 pm 


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I'm not sure if my initial comment was misunderstood, but I was in no way implying that getting to grips with the scoring system of a particular shmup was a "soulless" or worthless endeavour, in and of itself - not at all. The idea of the 'brainless' shooter is similarly retarded, I feel, and is just another example of the petty heirarchical mentality of a lot of gamers. I have a deep love and admiration of both of these styles, but I've never felt that classic shoot 'em ups are mindless, and I've never felt that modern shooters are particularly intelligent. Perhaps I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here, but it seems as if certain people like to think of modern shooters as complex affairs purely because they're insecure about being seen to be playing 'simple' games.

I don't mean to derail the thread, either. Sorry. :wink:
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Last edited by Klatrymadon on Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:22 pm 


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Randorama wrote:
On the other side, i'd say that the "no brains= true fun" mantra is getting annoying...

Definitely, this is a topic that keeps getting brought up. I think some people don't or refuse to realize that people can enjoy repeating a section 50 times, not just for a score chart, but for noticing and refining the little details. It's about the process or it would never get to the point of having a high score. It's milking enjoyment out of games that are enjoyable. I don't think many people can genuinely work hard at something they dislike and sustain interest. The "reward" is so menial no sane person would put in the time. Or maybe the scores are fake!

Quote:
worried about having fun

Hehe.


Last edited by Rob on Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:28 pm 



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Ah, i feel relieved, thanks for the clarifications.

At any case, i've forgot to say: the restarting syndrome is usually a specific alarm sign, that you're too tired or not in the right mood. I always give up after the tenth restart at the first/second stage, it's useless to stress out in that way. Some days, work is simply too much to allow for other intellectual activities...sad, but sometimes it's not a shmup day.That's important to learn how to recognize the symptoms. In those cases, i suggest more creative/explorative playing...

In short, if you see that you can't pull off a good run, try to see if you can discover something new in the score attack mode, or similar activities. Of course, if you can't do that as well, rest is the best cure, it is a fundamental part of improvement.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:18 am 


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I have the baaaaaaaaaaaaaad habit of restarting the game if I actually lose a life on the first stage. (or fuck up the first 50 or so Chains in Ikaruga) ^^;; Like, I need that life for later on and stuff.

Needless to say, I restrain myself from resetting when there's more than one person involved. ^^;
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:41 pm 


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Randorama wrote:
Ah, i feel relieved, thanks for the clarifications.

At any case, i've forgot to say: the restarting syndrome is usually a specific alarm sign, that you're too tired or not in the right mood. I always give up after the tenth restart at the first/second stage, it's useless to stress out in that way. Some days, work is simply too much to allow for other intellectual activities...sad, but sometimes it's not a shmup day.That's important to learn how to recognize the symptoms. In those cases, i suggest more creative/explorative playing...

In short, if you see that you can't pull off a good run, try to see if you can discover something new in the score attack mode, or similar activities. Of course, if you can't do that as well, rest is the best cure, it is a fundamental part of improvement.


If you'd have just said this instead of your fancy sarcasm posts. It pretty much matches what I said, with different words. Which is better because in this thread not one person said anything like what you were being sarcastic about.

I've honestly 'in real life' seen people wreck their own good nature because they can't put a shooter down. They play it and restart in the first stage 500 times and just get more pissd off and bitter. About everything. I've seen shooterscoremania carry over as pure stress into people's work and home/romantic lives and it is fucking sad. The people I am thinking of were not having fun. By anybody's definition. But hey, it gave him something to talk about. It gave them a make believe focal point so that they could not give a rat's ass about the rest of life as well as license to act like constant dickholes. All because they can't chain stage 2 in DDP DOJ. Or some other absurdity.

I've caught myself taking the first step on that path a couple of times. Getting all cranky and snappy because of poor videogame performance is just pathetic. So I like to always tell people that it is unnecessary. My memory works great and I can be a very tenacious person(must've played the first three or four stages of Guwange "fifty times" yesterday). But my definition of fun does not include stress, anger, headaches or dry red eyes.

Pa
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:57 pm 



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PaCrappa wrote:

If you'd have just said this instead of your fancy sarcasm posts. It pretty much matches what I said, with different words. Which is better because in this thread not one person said anything like what you were being sarcastic about.



Yeah, but this kind of thread has popped up a lot of times with petty peculiar arguments, in the past, hence the first post of mine. Beside that, i hoped that the final disclaimer would have partially lenied the evil sarcasm in the first half, sory for that.Beside that, and of course i don't pretend that you (in the plural sense) know that i've also made some self-sarcasm. Let's say that when i'm cynic in my posts, i'm my first target of denigration.

as for stress, well, i think i've had my moments of absolute moments as well, but i have also to say that fifty frustrating attempts at a game have been washed away by one masterful attempt. In those cases, though, i knew that i could do it, it's just about insisting when you know that the small sacrifice of today will become the great success of tomorrow. The goal is surely trivial (we're not saving the world while shmupping), but it can be a good character-building exercise. Of course, enough it's enough. Pulling of the feat today or tomorrow is the same, as long as you know that you can do it...
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