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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:15 am 


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Thanks for running this, Nifty.

List is okay, although I'm actually with EperorIng in that I feel some of the B-tier Cave games do place a little too high.

I am shocked, though, by Gradius Gaiden's and Dragon Blaze's drop from the top 25 and, to a lesser extent, Cyvern's, Gradius II's and Thunder Force III's drop from the HN.

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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:23 am 


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That's too bad about Bakraid and looks like you can forget about Psyvariar making it back to even honorable mentions anytime soon. List looks alright to me otherwise

I think Garegga is going to stay right where it is unless some new game comes out that blows peoples minds.


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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:46 am 


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Maybe I should play Garegga to find out what is up with this game. None of what I've read about it was attractive, but it must be in first place for a reason.
I'm just glad RayForce made it.

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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:21 pm 


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Fairy wars in the hm *swoons* how

This excuses how terribly dull that top 25 is... it would make a lot more sense if only the top 4 cave games were placed, and the others replaced by other community favorites like einhander, gradius gaiden or strikers 1999. Of course not every individual vote will be very diverse, but it's just sad that the final thing looks like this. I'd like to hope no newcomers ever use that list to figure out what to play
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:33 pm 


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Finally some real ESPGALUDA love. 8)
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:11 pm 


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chum wrote:
I'd like to hope no newcomers ever use that list to figure out what to play


It's a boring list, but not a bad list. If a newcomer stumbled on that lot they'd be shmup converted for lyfe.
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Last edited by Skykid on Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:19 pm 


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I'm surprised that Deathsmiles II made it into the HMs. I thought it was pretty unpopular on here?
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:18 pm 


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I like the look of the Honourable Mentions list, those are all great games and there's a lot of diversity.

Makes up for the sort of boring top 25, not that it being boring goes against the goal of the vote.. makes sense that there's a bigger consensus being formed over the years.

I have a feeling things will change a couple years after Cave eventually stops releasing games. Imagine if this list was made in the Toaplan days.


Last edited by Zaarock on Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:19 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
chum wrote:
I'd like to hope no newcomers ever use that list to figure out what to play


It's a boring list, but not a bad list. If a newcomer stumbled on that lot they'd be shmup converted for lyfe.


It's not too bad if you look at it game-by-game, but it's bad as a list since it further reinforces the idea that the genre isn't diverse.

Battle Garegga at #1 is also suspicious. It seems that some people vote for it out of "respect" because they're "supposed to". The game's not even close to as complicated as people make it out to be. Battle Garegga at #1 is the "weird" part of the list and, in a way, its saving grace... but I'm guessing many of its voters felt that it was simply an obligation to include it, so in that way, it fails.

On the other hand, the HM far better, most of the "good" developers are represented. Yet... No Parodius even on HM? No Capcom anywhere? Batsugun and Flying Shark the only Toaplan?
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:07 pm 


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DocHauser wrote:
I'm surprised that Deathsmiles II made it into the HMs. I thought it was pretty unpopular on here?


I think it might be better than the original, play-wise. I didn't vote tho.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:21 pm 


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Zaarock wrote:
I have a feeling things will change a couple years after Cave eventually stops releasing games.
That's assuming the future holds any worthwhile shmups to replace them.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:38 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
Finally some real ESPGALUDA love. 8)

It's surprising that both ESPGaluda's made the list. Granted, I've only played the first one (and thus voted for it), but I thought most people consider ESPGaluda 2 to be the better game. Well, ha, according to the list it certainly is.

Zaarock wrote:
Imagine if this list was made in the Toaplan days.


I don't know man, I don't know how many people back then would consider Toaplan shooters their absolute favorite with all the fierce competition in the 80s and 90s. Genre diversity was much more a thing back then given the prevalence of the arcade (and arcade shooter), so it's not unreasonable that players then would look at Toaplan shooters and sees a lot of samey (same-y? same-y?) stuff.

PedroMD wrote:
I'm just glad RayForce made it.


True that. Taito is deserving of some respect on the shmup scene.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:27 pm 


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Since I mostly play Cave games and have only recently been introduced to the Raiden series, I wasn't able to vote this year due to my poor knowledge of other games (I've never played a Thunder Force, Musha, or Darius game for example). This list should be helpful in helping me discover some other great shmups. I recently credit-fed Garegga and while it's not how it is supposed to be played, I had a really good time. It definitely shows why it keeps popping up at the top place of this list.

EDIT: I'm glad to see Akai Katana on the top 25, it seems everyone who played it at the arcade hates it but Shin is so damn good. It's probably tied for my favorite horizontal shmup with Blazing Star.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:16 pm 


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damn, Progear didn't make the top 25 :(
at least Akai Katana made it but I definitely think Progear is the superior title (dat CAVE steampunk vibe is so awesome).

I was hoping that STG Weekly episode might help aid in the voting.

chum wrote:
Battle Garegga at #1 is also suspicious. It seems that some people vote for it out of "respect" because they're "supposed to". The game's not even close to as complicated as people make it out to be. Battle Garegga at #1 is the "weird" part of the list and, in a way, its saving grace... but I'm guessing many of its voters felt that it was simply an obligation to include it, so in that way, it fails.
garegga is seriously tied for first for me with progear which is slightly ahead of futari. I actually wasn't content with just having garegga on SAT and needed the board so I bought it a couple weeks ago :P that's how much I like it. It's actually in demonstration mode right now right in front of me haha.

I know it's the part most people hate, but I love how you have to play the game in a different mindset to control rank yet you have to score high enough by chaining medals so you can kill yourself. the concept is brutal. not to mention, it has my favorite soundtrack (both original and arrange).

I would honestly rank subversive awareness and marginal consciousness arrange in my top 5 videogame tracks of all time.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:25 pm 


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royalfan84 wrote:
DDP DFK not making the list completely baffles me from seeing how many times and often how highly it was voted on.


This is why I complained about splitting 1.5 and Black Label. I agree that they feel like two different games, but if all the modes of Akai Katana count as a single game, so should DFK. Maybe I'll complain a little louder next year.

A little disappointed to see Takumi sliding down the list this year, and Hellsinker not even in the HM? I think more people should give it a go; it's not that hard to figure out. At least Rayforce is back.

I guess I should get used to the fact that I'm apparently the only person on the forum who likes Giga Wing 2.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:29 pm 



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Aquas wrote:

....R-Type sticking out like a sore thumb. It really makes me wish we had categorical voting or some sort, but hey, this is tradition.



I would not mind seeing a list of the top non-bullet-hell shooters.


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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:51 pm 


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jasoncslaughter wrote:
I guess I should get used to the fact that I'm apparently the only person on the forum who likes Giga Wing 2.

It's surprising that Giga Wing made it last year. It's not like the sequel is better in nearly every way... :wink:


God wrote:
Aquas wrote:
....R-Type sticking out like a sore thumb. It really makes me wish we had categorical voting or some sort, but hey, this is tradition.

I would not mind seeing a list of the top non-bullet-hell shooters.


From my count, about five entries on the top-25 aren't bullet hell. It's interesting how things are skewed, but I can only assume it's because everyone is stuck playing their xbox 360s!
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:00 am 


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There are games in that list which simply don't deserve it.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:02 am 



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There's the 3 treasure games and R-Type...what's number 5?


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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:09 am 


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i'm still so fucking mad that DB dropped from 15th fucking place all the way out of the top 25

did i seriously get people to hate that game or something?? what the fuck
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:12 am 


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chum wrote:
Battle Garegga at #1 is also suspicious. It seems that some people vote for it out of "respect" because they're "supposed to". The game's not even close to as complicated as people make it out to be.


Eventhough I actually love Garegga and would put it in first place any time, I can see your point and agree on this one. Stuff that baffles me though: Why should an especially complicated game be in first place? That point doesn't even come close to qualify a good game.

And then again, can there be an actual first place where your statement doesn't fit? Every possible game that can be in first place can possibly be overrated because people "are casual", people "respect it 'cause they're supposed to be" or people "just feel obligated to vote for it".

So while I can see your point, it's not very strong with the arguments you gave and easily interchangeable depending on which game is at first place (With the obvious exception of some game you really like. Would you say the same about Fairy Wars?).

So what the fuck is actually being suspicious and why?
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:10 am 



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Plasmo wrote:
chum wrote:
Battle Garegga at #1 is also suspicious. It seems that some people vote for it out of "respect" because they're "supposed to". The game's not even close to as complicated as people make it out to be.


Eventhough I actually love Garegga and would put it in first place any time, I can see your point and agree on this one. Stuff that baffles me though: Why should an especially complicated game be in first place? That point doesn't even come close to qualify a good game.

And then again, can there be an actual first place where your statement doesn't fit? Every possible game that can be in first place can possibly be overrated because people "are casual", people "respect it 'cause they're supposed to be" or people "just feel obligated to vote for it".

So while I can see your point, it's not very strong with the arguments you gave and easily interchangeable depending on which game is at first place (With the obvious exception of some game you really like. Would you say the same about Fairy Wars?).

So what the fuck is actually being suspicious and why?



Just ignore that kind of reasoning. For every person intentionally putting it on their list, there are people who intentionally knock it down on their list (or leave it off altogether) just because they don't want to see it win.

A lot of people love Garegga and it's totally deserving. Any top-rated game will always have a minority of oddballs who try to take it down. It doesn't change the fact that they're still in the minority.


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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:29 am 


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Plasmo wrote:
chum wrote:
Battle Garegga at #1 is also suspicious. It seems that some people vote for it out of "respect" because they're "supposed to". The game's not even close to as complicated as people make it out to be.


Eventhough I actually love Garegga and would put it in first place any time, I can see your point and agree on this one. Stuff that baffles me though: Why should an especially complicated game be in first place? That point doesn't even come close to qualify a good game.

And then again, can there be an actual first place where your statement doesn't fit? Every possible game that can be in first place can possibly be overrated because people "are casual", people "respect it 'cause they're supposed to be" or people "just feel obligated to vote for it".

So while I can see your point, it's not very strong with the arguments you gave and easily interchangeable depending on which game is at first place (With the obvious exception of some game you really like. Would you say the same about Fairy Wars?).

So what the fuck is actually being suspicious and why?


I think Garegga very exceptional, People just tend to overcomplicate it a bit, it was a separate point from the one voting out of obligation. I've concluded that these points are true in some regard by browsing the forum, but of course, part of it is speculation too. I think it goes hand in hand with the problem of voting for a game you think is "great" but you "don't like/don't get". If you look at the top games then Garegga pretty out of place and I just can't help but question whether or not everyone that voted for it actually likes it.

As far as complexity is concerned, people tend to focus too much on the surface, when I think what matters more is how complicated is the routing, dynamic decision making, possibilities, and so on. This isn't something you can just easily measure but I personally don't think Garegga should be put on some sort of pedestal and that Ketsui for example has at least as much depth, yet that game is known for having a pretty simple to understand system so it gets taken more for granted. Just an observation. I can't agree that you could say the same things about any other game. Most games aren't discussed nearly as much as Garegga in the first place. Cave games are taken way more for granted, and any other developer just isn't popular enough.

So yeah, when I said suspicious, that is because I'm honestly questioning whether many people even "know" the game they're voting for, and if they like it.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:37 am 


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MrOldSchoolCool wrote:
Just ignore that kind of reasoning. For every person intentionally putting it on their list, there are people who intentionally knock it down on their list (or leave it off altogether) just because they don't want to see it win.


I'm not sure I understand. If you didn't want to see it win, then you probably wouldn't vote for it regardless, right? I think It's way more likely that someone would intentionally leave it in despite not favoring it, than intentionally leave it out despite favoring it.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:38 am 


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jasoncslaughter wrote:
I guess I should get used to the fact that I'm apparently the only person on the forum who likes Giga Wing 2.
I voted for gigawing 1, albeit near the end of my list so it would have barely count. I haven't played 2 or generations though.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:46 am 


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God wrote:
There's the 3 treasure games and R-Type...what's number 5?

RayForce, man. It's definitely hell, but just a different type.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:51 am 



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chum wrote:
MrOldSchoolCool wrote:
Just ignore that kind of reasoning. For every person intentionally putting it on their list, there are people who intentionally knock it down on their list (or leave it off altogether) just because they don't want to see it win.


I'm not sure I understand. If you didn't want to see it win, then you probably wouldn't vote for it regardless, right? I think It's way more likely that someone would intentionally leave it in despite not favoring it, than intentionally leave it out despite favoring it.



Whether you intentionally leave it off or intentionally knock it down a few spots, it makes the game not do as well as if you were voting honestly.

The point is that people vote dishonestly both ways in order to manipulate the final standings. If you believe it goes one way more than the other, then go ahead. Perhaps it does, but who will ever know for sure?

My personal guess would be that people dock Cave games intentionally, or leave them off, for the sake of saying they have more diverse lists and are more educated on great shmups.


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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:07 am 


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My personal guess would be that people dock Cave games intentionally, or leave them off, for the sake of saying they have more diverse lists and are more educated on great shmups.


And that's why 12/25.
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:14 am 


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Not to mention "every arcade game Cave has ever made" on both lists. Why be so defensive?
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 Post subject: Re: 11th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:34 am 



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Plasmo wrote:
Quote:
My personal guess would be that people dock Cave games intentionally, or leave them off, for the sake of saying they have more diverse lists and are more educated on great shmups.


And that's why 12/25.



I think it would be even worse if people voted more honestly.

And Ing, are you talking about me? What am I defending? Cave?? I just think that's honestly what happens. Hell, I've done it myself. I've left Cave games off intentionally to give some other non-Cave games some credit because I know the Cave games will get plenty of attention and I feel my list already has enough Cave as it is. I think there's other people that do this too. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just an opinion on what I think people do. I'm not trying to defend anything. Now I'm defending myself :oops:


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