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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:04 pm 


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Ketsui is probably my favourite shmup of all time, you're about to release an "arrange" version, and it could be played on the actual pcb !
I mean, whoa, it's like a shmuper dream you're creating here, so thanks for that !
I can't wait to play this on my cab :D
And if it's good you can count on me for clicking the donation button :wink:
You should get paid for this, if it allows you to do more of these arrange versions and you get credit for what you do, it can't be wrong !


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:22 am 


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I'll also donate once I play the arrange.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:23 am 



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If he starts accepting money for it then Cave will be on his ass faster than he can say SH3 emulation.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:37 am 


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I'm not asking for money, people are giving it to me. I'm not going to withhold anything if I don't get any donations, and I am not asking for them in any way shape or form.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:44 am 



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Haze, MAME devs accept donations even though they don't come up with anything new per se, rather than making information already known to the developers of old games available to larger groups of people.

trap15 actually puts something of his own in this, so I don't see why he shouldn't accept donations just as well.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:17 am 



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moozooh wrote:
Haze, MAME devs accept donations even though they don't come up with anything new per se, rather than making information already known to the developers of old games available to larger groups of people.

trap15 actually puts something of his own in this, so I don't see why he shouldn't accept donations just as well.


The Dumping Union accept donations, Mamedev does not. They are separate entities, and not everything the DU do is MAME related, they help as much with other emus (DEMUL etc.)

I have asked for, and received a grand total of £0 for 13 years of MAME work. If he's getting paid for hacking up Cave games, and distributing hacked up Cave games, then Cave will C&D him, or maybe just skip that part completely, they get worked up enough when NO money is involved. The fact there is a donation system in place implies asking for money.

Sorry, but when it comes to emulation and hacking I take a VERY dim view on things if it's money going into pocket, always have, always will.


Last edited by IseeThings on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:19 am 


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IseeThings wrote:
I have asked for, and received a grand total of £0 for 13 years of MAME work.


If you suggest that you've asked for £0, then all is well?
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:21 am 



Joined: 16 Dec 2010
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emphatic wrote:
IseeThings wrote:
I have asked for, and received a grand total of £0 for 13 years of MAME work.


If you suggest that you've asked for £0, then all is well?


Yes, from my point of view all is well, emulation and rom hacking is not a hobby where money should be involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:25 am 


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I'm pretty sure Nimitz posted a PayPal donate button for Shmupmame at some stage though I must confess I'm having some trouble finding it I do recall it definitely happening. I've seen various people in Development do the same and no one has issues regardless of whether it's commercial or not, and no one's complained. Finally, donations are indeed asked for and accepted for purchasing PCBs in the name of MAME work as I saw on MAMEWorld just the other day.

You say it's The Dumping Union that accepts donations and not MAMEdev itself here, but being so touchy about Cave C&Ding yourself do you really think Cave will distinguish a difference here?
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:27 am 


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IseeThings wrote:
The fact there is a donation system in place implies asking for money.

The donation system has been in place for 2 or 3 years now, before I even took a glimpse at Cave's code.

IseeThings wrote:
I have asked for, and received a grand total of £0 for 13 years of MAME work.

I never asked for any donations for this project, nor do I ever intend to.

If Cave has any problem with me accepting donations, I will gladly refund any donations I receive for this work.

IseeThings wrote:
Yes, from my point of view all is well, emulation and rom hacking is not a hobby where money should be involved.

Honestly, I agree. Though, in my opinion, money should never be involved in anything; it always leads to complications.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:46 am 



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trap15 wrote:
IseeThings wrote:
The fact there is a donation system in place implies asking for money.

The donation system has been in place for 2 or 3 years now, before I even took a glimpse at Cave's code.

IseeThings wrote:
I have asked for, and received a grand total of £0 for 13 years of MAME work.

I never asked for any donations for this project, nor do I ever intend to.

If Cave has any problem with me accepting donations, I will gladly refund any donations I receive for this work.

IseeThings wrote:
Yes, from my point of view all is well, emulation and rom hacking is not a hobby where money should be involved.

Honestly, I agree. Though, in my opinion, money should never be involved in anything; it always leads to complications.


Well, I'm just saying, watch your back.

I think it's quite clear that Cave either read this forum, or have informants here. If they get wind of people donating to you *because* of these hacks I can't see the end results being pretty. Hacking the roms can be quite good fun tho, would be nice if you documented some of what you found somewhere, unless Cave are a-typical of other developers there will be a lot of dead code in there, actual game modes, enemy types etc. that were considered, but dropped.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:53 am 



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BPzeBanshee wrote:
I'm pretty sure Nimitz posted a PayPal donate button for Shmupmame at some stage though I must confess I'm having some trouble finding it I do recall it definitely happening. I've seen various people in Development do the same and no one has issues regardless of whether it's commercial or not, and no one's complained. Finally, donations are indeed asked for and accepted for purchasing PCBs in the name of MAME work as I saw on MAMEWorld just the other day.


ShmupMame isn't the work of Mamedev tho, and people have been kicked off Mamedev before when they were found to be selling ROM DVDs etc. even if they claimed it was optional and just a donation to cover media costs.

Maybe some will try to accept donations, but it will always be frowned upon because it causes conflict. If you're being paid to do something there is always the incentive to rush out buggy, hacky code ahead of doing something properly leaving developers working on things for free to clean up the mess.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:57 am 


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Yeah, I've posted a bit of my findings on the Ketsui ST thread. There are a few bits of unused or stubbed out code that are interesting, and there are some rather strange "enemy" IDs that do interesting things. Maybe I should release a .IDC extracted from my .IDB sometime.
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<Shepardus> whoever reached the fourth loop in zing zing zip is the modern day sisyphus


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:43 am 


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IseeThings wrote:
ShmupMame isn't the work of Mamedev tho, and people have been kicked off Mamedev before when they were found to be selling ROM DVDs etc. even if they claimed it was optional and just a donation to cover media costs.

Maybe some will try to accept donations, but it will always be frowned upon because it causes conflict. If you're being paid to do something there is always the incentive to rush out buggy, hacky code ahead of doing something properly leaving developers working on things for free to clean up the mess.

Fair game then Haze. As I said I can't actually where Nimitz put it so it's possible he may have taken a similar stance to yours and removed it - I can't get results out of this forum even putting in direct quotes from the post/thread title. My last point that you didn't want wasn't meant as a rhetorical question though - you're distinguishing differences between yourselves and assisting organisations but do you think Cave will do so as well if they sent a C&D and/or lawsuit?

My original point was that others have put up PayPal buttons etc for donation work involving hacking/emulation well before trap15, and it sounds to me like you're singling him out because there's CAVE work involved in it - but I suppose in the end you have a fair point in warning as well even (if it is a bit Captain Obvious). It does frankly seem just a little bit hypocritical to me considering what has gone towards the benefit of MAMEdev even in things like actual PCBs regardless of whether MAMEdev themselves were involved in said transaction, but I digress.

Bottom line: The real concern here should be not how *we* see it but how *CAVE* will, methinks.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:09 pm 


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Cave Mole thread again anyone?

@ Banshee.

This is not a matter of "hey, dis gai is prohibiting dat gai to do wat he did"... it's that this is a hack of one of cave games...

Trap... just in case... Cave might be waiting for the release to start firing the artillery so I recomend you to return any donations you may have received for Ketsui Arrange to prevent giving then a "Casus Belli"

We can live without Ketsui Arrange so if you have a problem at some point I'll gladly delete any copy of that ROM I will have and I think anyone here should do the same promise


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:36 pm 


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O. Van Bruce wrote:
We can live without Ketsui Arrange so if you have a problem at some point I'll gladly delete any copy of that ROM I will have and I think anyone here should do the same promise


Uh... yeah sure. Definitely.

Quote:
Well, I'm just saying, watch your back.

I think it's quite clear that Cave either read this forum, or have informants here.


Shmups forum conspiracies rule. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:42 pm 


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I'm not the fucking GwangeDash guys, I'm not going to try to put the genie back in the bottle (nor do I ever intend to, since it's utterly futile). If Cave has a problem, I will certainly return any donations I receive though, but I don't expect anyone to delete the game or anything.

Anyways, development is almost complete, mostly just dicking around with patching mechanisms now (so I can avoid the DDPA release problems again). Release date is now set, and will not change.

Along with the Arrange release, I will be releasing the Back Label and Fast Label patches.

Also, 7 is a lucky number.
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<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
<Shepardus> whoever reached the fourth loop in zing zing zip is the modern day sisyphus


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:12 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
I'm not the fucking GwangeDash guys, I'm not going to try to put the genie back in the bottle (nor do I ever intend to, since it's utterly futile). If Cave has a problem, I will certainly return any donations I receive though, but I don't expect anyone to delete the game or anything.

Anyways, development is almost complete, mostly just dicking around with patching mechanisms now (so I can avoid the DDPA release problems again). Release date is now set, and will not change.

Along with the Arrange release, I will be releasing the Back Label and Fast Label patches.

Also, 7 is a lucky number.


Wait, you're doing 3 different versions?! You're the best man!
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:18 pm 


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Back Label and Fast Label are actually really old patches (about a year old I think), I just never got the chance to release them.
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<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
<Shepardus> whoever reached the fourth loop in zing zing zip is the modern day sisyphus


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:28 pm 


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Aah okay thanks for the clarification
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:50 pm 


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Skykid wrote:
O. Van Bruce wrote:
We can live without Ketsui Arrange so if you have a problem at some point I'll gladly delete any copy of that ROM I will have and I think anyone here should do the same promise


Uh... yeah sure. Definitely.


At least I'm trying to be nice instead of going "Hurr Durr, the only thing that matters to me is the game/arrange... if you are having problems, go fuck yourself developer, I don't care"


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:02 pm 


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Can't believe I have been avoiding this thread for so long.

And now I'm kicking myself in the ass for selling my Ketsui PCB.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:46 pm 


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O. Van Bruce wrote:
Skykid wrote:
O. Van Bruce wrote:
We can live without Ketsui Arrange so if you have a problem at some point I'll gladly delete any copy of that ROM I will have and I think anyone here should do the same promise


Uh... yeah sure. Definitely.


At least I'm trying to be nice instead of going "Hurr Durr, the only thing that matters to me is the game/arrange... if you are having problems, go fuck yourself developer, I don't care"


Who said that?

Saying you've deleted the rom and actually deleting the rom amounts to exactly the same thing, since no-one but you can every verify that you did it.
If Trap has heat coming from Cave he'll have more pressing matters than trying to get every person who ever downloaded the rom to send him an email saying they deleted it, just for peace of mind.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:54 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
Also, 7 is a lucky number.


The plot thickens. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:07 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:57 pm 



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Really looking forward to this.

Is the very special day . . . Tax Day?


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:28 pm 



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BPzeBanshee wrote:
IseeThings wrote:
ShmupMame isn't the work of Mamedev tho, and people have been kicked off Mamedev before when they were found to be selling ROM DVDs etc. even if they claimed it was optional and just a donation to cover media costs.

Maybe some will try to accept donations, but it will always be frowned upon because it causes conflict. If you're being paid to do something there is always the incentive to rush out buggy, hacky code ahead of doing something properly leaving developers working on things for free to clean up the mess.

Fair game then Haze. As I said I can't actually where Nimitz put it so it's possible he may have taken a similar stance to yours and removed it - I can't get results out of this forum even putting in direct quotes from the post/thread title. My last point that you didn't want wasn't meant as a rhetorical question though - you're distinguishing differences between yourselves and assisting organisations but do you think Cave will do so as well if they sent a C&D and/or lawsuit?


Well they'd have to....

The dumps weren't actually done by either the DU or Mamedev, and there's nothing technically illegal about the code Mamedev distribute, remember the driver was dropped out of courtesy upon request, not because there was believed to be any real legal weight behind it. Anyway, to answer your question it would a bit like me trying to sue Sony because my I went blind playing on an Xbox, they're both games consoles right?


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:47 pm 


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trap15 wrote:
Release date is now set, and will not change.

Along with the Arrange release, I will be releasing the Back Label and Fast Label patches.

Ketsui Arrange is one thing, but suddenly saying you're also going to release Fast and Back Label really is a big tease for us - and keeping the release date unknown to everyone isn't helping the hype. :lol:
trap15 wrote:
Also, 7 is a lucky number.

YOUR GOD DAMN TEASES
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:10 am 


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IseeThings wrote:
Well they'd have to....

The dumps weren't actually done by either the DU or Mamedev, and there's nothing technically illegal about the code Mamedev distribute, remember the driver was dropped out of courtesy upon request, not because there was believed to be any real legal weight behind it. Anyway, to answer your question it would a bit like me trying to sue Sony because my I went blind playing on an Xbox, they're both games consoles right?

That's roughly what I thought. My concern was that (having not seen Cave's private C&D) I'm not sure if they'll actually target trap15 specifically or anyone who has contributed. I've seen at least one company blame an irrelevant group for contributing to piracy even though they had no hand in it themselves - but clearly as you've clarified for Cave to try and do the same thing they'd have little to no legal backing.

Also, good to hear about Back/Fast Label too. I imagine the scoreboards for them will rush in popularity soon afterwards eh. :D
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui Arrange
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:04 am 


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SuperSoaker360 wrote:
trap15 wrote:
Also, 7 is a lucky number.

YOUR GOD DAMN TEASES


My guess is the score cubes will now go up to 7. Maybe.
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