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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:04 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
I don't get why people are so crazy about that 4:3 mode.

Come on, most shoot'em ups out there are still 4:3 or 3:4, and ALWAYS have borders on a widescreen TV, and people never complain about that!


I'm not complaining about the borders, I'm complaining about the fact that everything is squashed down into a blurry blob and you can't read most of the text on an SDTV. I can totally understand why devs would go with the 16:9 ratio, as that is what most video game consumers have. I have a feeling that an awful lot of shooter enthusiasts have their 360 set up on a CRT most of the time (not to mention in tate).

Really it's not going to make me not buy the game or anything, but it would just be real convenient if the game was 4:3. However as you said, there would be issues unless they implemented some annoying waggle to display the corners of the screen, so I really don't expect it to be available.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:14 am 


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Deca wrote:
Sumez wrote:
I don't get why people are so crazy about that 4:3 mode.

Come on, most shoot'em ups out there are still 4:3 or 3:4, and ALWAYS have borders on a widescreen TV, and people never complain about that!


I'm not complaining about the borders, I'm complaining about the fact that everything is squashed down into a blurry blob and you can't read most of the text on an SDTV. I can totally understand why devs would go with the 16:9 ratio, as that is what most video game consumers have. I have a feeling that an awful lot of shooter enthusiasts have their 360 set up on a CRT most of the time (not to mention in tate).

Really it's not going to make me not buy the game or anything, but it would just be real convenient if the game was 4:3. However as you said, there would be issues unless they implemented some annoying waggle to display the corners of the screen, so I really don't expect it to be available.

This is my thoughts, entirely. It's one of those "would be nice but gameplay's gotta work first" things. Having said that there's nothing wrong with asking.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:20 pm 


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Im really digging the 3D artwork and for the story / easy mode it looks fun to play at least for a couple of playthoughs. Hopefully the dev has taken onboard all the gameplay suggestions, especially the blue bullets on a blue background. Also ive noticed that there is a option to fast forward when the game is doing its Ikaruga style camera panning which is cool.

I look forward to seeing the tweaked arcade mode which is aimed at experienced players
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:00 pm 



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Rank, please!
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:07 pm 



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Damn! It looks beautiful :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:04 am 


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I'll probably play this since I've enjoyed all the Suda games I've played but the only thing I can say looking at the gameplay footage is that I hope there is a mode where the bullets move much faster. I also hope there is a way to skip the dialog and cinematic sequences, since it seems like it breaks up the gameplay too much for a shooter.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:02 am 


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Ghegs wrote:
Wondering about the mechanics...there's a multiplier...


Looks like the multiplier steadily rises as stuff is destroyed unless the player does one of two things... either takes a hit or uses the multi-spread missile barrage (both of those instantly dropped the multiplier back to 1).
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:15 am 


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Finally managed to get a look at the gameplay video, VERY cool stuff going on here actually. After all the apprehension in the thread I'd lowered my expectations and was quite pleasantly surprised. Still, definitely some issues (easily addressed, I should think) that could make this a great game.

Really the biggest issues I see have obviously been addressed already. The bullets really need to be made to stand out more from the background. I'm sure it looks better in person, but blue on blue is always going to be an issue. P-47 Aces, the game we just finished playing for STGT, had definite issues with bullet visibility and it detracted significantly from my enjoyment of the game. It's fun and I enjoy playing it, but after being killed a few times because I wasn't able to predict the location of a bullet I could barely see my motivation to play dropped substantially.

I really hope the pace of the game will be increased for arcade mode, and I don't just mean via the elimination of transitions and cutscenes and whatnot. The game feels like it would really benefit from moving faster all around. Not a huge speed increase, but just enough to make it feel more energetic. A more visually striking main shot would help as well. Doesn't need to be a huge over the top spread or anything, I'm sure you designed the game to work with the straight shot seen here, I just think players would enjoy looking at something a little more exciting than a Gradius pea shooter :p

Honestly I'm even more excited than I was now that I saw the video. The style looks very nice in motion (I particularly liked the name card cut in). The time mechanic looks neat, sorta a Sanvein thing going on there. My only concern is that in more difficult stages taking a hit just leads to a long, drawn out failure due to not having enough time left to complete the stage. Granted I don't know exactly how the time system works or anything.

Very excited to hear more and see how the game continues to come together!
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:34 pm 


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Just saw the video of the 10min Demo. It looks very nice.
Wonder if it is a full release or a download via the console stores?


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:51 pm 


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It's for PSN/XBLA.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:30 pm 



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This just in (frankly - never heard about the site before):

http://www.bone-idle.ie/index.php/digital-reality-and-grasshopper-manufacture-team-up-to-show-us-sine-mora-and-black-knight-sword/

"Official" answer to the "leaked" gameplay video reactions coming soon - and a new gameplay video, showing the hardcore mode around TGS.

Also, I've just learned that the game will be freely playable on PAX next week (on the show floor), so please come and give it a try if you can!


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:01 pm 


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I just read that article. Apparently, people can't stop referring to "Ikaruga" when they want to use a shooter as an example. I'd personally compare it to Espgaluda in terms of that "slowing down bullets, yet totally not easy" part, but that's just me.

Anyways, I have not posted here yet, mostly because everyone else has jumped on the points I wanted to make about the gameplay video. The blue bullets and the obnoxious screen shaking were my two biggest peeves but, that aside, I like what I see.

I'm keen on seeing that Arcade mode, especially on higher difficulties, too. I may be bad at shmups in general (especially the horizontally scrolling sort), but that doesn't stop me from wanting and appreciating something more difficult.

Overall, I'm really excited about this game!
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:44 pm 


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Reiker wrote:

Seems to be taken down :(


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:09 pm 



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http://www.bone-idle.ie/index.php/games ... ght-sword/

Is that the article? I didn't get a chance to check the original link before it went down so I can't be sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:20 pm 



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Icemael wrote:
http://www.bone-idle.ie/index.php/gamescom-digital-reality-and-grasshopper-manufacture-showcase-sine-mora-and-black-knight-sword/

Is that the article? I didn't get a chance to check the original link before it went down so I can't be sure.


Yes, that's the article Reiker talked about.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:05 am 


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BrightSuzaku wrote:
I just read that article. Apparently, people can't stop referring to "Ikaruga" when they want to use a shooter as an example. I'd personally compare it to Espgaluda in terms of that "slowing down bullets, yet totally not easy" part, but that's just me.

Anyways, I have not posted here yet, mostly because everyone else has jumped on the points I wanted to make about the gameplay video. The blue bullets and the obnoxious screen shaking were my two biggest peeves but, that aside, I like what I see.

I'm keen on seeing that Arcade mode, especially on higher difficulties, too. I may be bad at shmups in general (especially the horizontally scrolling sort), but that doesn't stop me from wanting and appreciating something more difficult.

Overall, I'm really excited about this game!


Ikaruga is my favorite shmup...but it's not the only one that exists! :P
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:18 am 



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Yes, that's the article.

Quote:
Not digging blue bullets on a blue background


Unfortunately, the unofficial video is way too bright - there is no problem with the bullet visibility in the game. (Sarcasm on: for commenters missing Battle Garegga - here you go. :).
Plus, we still need to completely recalibrate the colours for televisions, just before the release. We'll definitely modify the blue bullets on this level if it's needed after the calibration.

Quote:
pickups shouldn't be reusing same exact colour palette as bullets!!!


Thanks, we'll make sure this is fixed!

Quote:
I just don't want them to be lazy and not include 2P just because it's a downloadable game, is all.


No 2P, sorry.
For a long time, it was planned, even implemented, then… well, I'd say, it's now a matter of sales performance for the company. We're not lazy, but we have a fixed budget and we have our priorities. A good, balanced 2P mode (including online play) would take 3-4 additional months with the proper TCR / TRC testing, and sadly we don't have such luxury.

It was my decision - maybe a wrong one - but I hate compromises, and the 2P mode represented a huge workload for this (small) team. Our choice was to focus on a solid 1P mode instead.

Quote:
An option to turn off the dialog box would be good.


There is an option to turn off the dialog box in the Options menu.

Quote:
The explosions on the boats are huge and obscure the enemy bullets completely. Bullets should be on top of everything (including the player ship!)


Yes, this is actually on our to-do list - had no time before the show to fix it, sorry!

Quote:
The giant train was cool. Seems it's possible to wipe out entire phases of it with that charged shot, though. It shouldn't do that much damage.


Thanks! That's not a charged shot, it's one of the (selectable) sub-weapons. (Read: "bombs".) Their number is limited.

Quote:
No but seriously can this game PLEASE have a 4:3 mode or is there just no way


Umm… no way, I'm afraid.

Quote:
A more visually striking main shot would help as well.


Still working on this, thanks!

Quote:
...obnoxious screen shaking were my two biggest peeves


We'll definitely tone this down. Seemed like a good idea for a while and no actual players complained so far, but we'll modify this.

Thank you very much for your time - your feedback is really appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:56 am 


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For what it's worth, 2 player modes in general seem to be an afterthought in nearly every PS2/360 era STG I've played - most of the time it's literally just throwing in a second player and adjusting camera behavior to make sure both players can see. A lot of casual players seem to have a lot of fun with it despite it being a throwaway level of effort most of the time.

Actually, I wonder how common doubleplay is these days...


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:45 am 


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As most others stated, I think the decision to leave out a 2P mode is fine considering most great shoot'em ups aren't even supposed to be player 2 players.
Of course it could be fun to have for a few social events, but other things should be higher priority.

I feel the same way about 4:3 mode, as already stated. Trying to balance stuff like that shouldn't be more important than getting the core game as good as you can within your deadlines.


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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:27 am 


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StarCreator wrote:
For what it's worth, 2 player modes in general seem to be an afterthought in nearly every PS2/360 era STG I've played - most of the time it's literally just throwing in a second player and adjusting camera behavior to make sure both players can see. A lot of casual players seem to have a lot of fun with it despite it being a throwaway level of effort most of the time.

Actually, I wonder how common doubleplay is these days...

Beyond the twin-stick stuff of Raiden III/IV I don't think there's much games released recently in the commercial scene that actually have been well-made around the 2-player idea - but I'm speculating a bit here, so it's more than likely I'm wrong. I quite thoroughly enjoy a shmup having a half-decent 2-player mode even if its as simple as what Cave games do in hampering the extreme side of the scoring system (ie. for ESPRade you can't get x16 multipliers with a second player on the field) but alas you're definitely right about that afterthought feeling though.

@Reiker:
Getting the standard mode for this game absolutely right should be the most important thing of course. That said, I'm thinking a bit into post-release for this game. Do you plan on having any kind of additional stuff put in via updates past the game's release or is this kind of view too far ahead to say?
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:43 pm 


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I love big screen shakes!
I'll be at PAX, can't wait to see it
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:17 pm 


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I hate trailers that show no gameplay. What's the point?

and why bother with all this storyline BS? You won't care when you're playing.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:14 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
As most others stated, I think the decision to leave out a 2P mode is fine considering most great shoot'em ups aren't even supposed to be player 2 players.
Of course it could be fun to have for a few social events, but other things should be higher priority.

I feel the same way about 4:3 mode, as already stated. Trying to balance stuff like that shouldn't be more important than getting the core game as good as you can within your deadlines.


Yeah im of the same mind, imo multiplayer is best done properly or not at all, it's abit of a pet peeve when sngle player games like Bioshock 2 & Deadspace 2 waste development time & money on half baked co-op.

@ Reiker THX for responding to our questions in such a frank way! I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind answering how you feel about giving the player the option of choosing for himself such things as bullet colour, slowdown on/off, HiDef or Std Def, screen shake? Sorry to put you on the spot here but its something that ive been wondering ever since I first became a fan of the genre.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:07 pm 



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After watching the trailer, I'd like to offer some feedback.

Off the top of my head:

1. Please remove health bars for enemies, at least in the arcade mode. A decent player will get a good idea of the amount of hit points per enemy fairly quickly, and the lack of health bars will avoid useless information on screen.

2. Please increase the enemy count, especially pop-corn enemies. I strongly suggest to avoid lulls in which there's nothing on screen. In general, you should keep players on their toes all the time.

3. Please improve the main weapon. If Ikaruga is your model, then you may want to have a simple straight shot that, however, shoots at high frequency, e.g. much like a completely overcloked autofire. In that case the main shoot would feel like a high-precision laser, piercing through enemy barrages. If you work on 2, then 3 is easily improvable as well.

And then this:

4. Rank, please. Have the bullets to go faster or slower than a given standard, depending on how good (bad) a player performs. Since you cite Garegga, you should know what I am talking about, but here on the site we have some material on this topic, we can link you to it (...I think). If the score system is based on quick kills, then you really need to give extra formations of pop-corn enemies when players quickly *wipe out* enemies. Ikaruga, Shikigami no Shiro (esp. 2 and 3), Border Down, Mars Matrix are good examples of this other type of mechanics.

5. (but it should be 0, really). The guts feeling. The game now looks veeeery nice, but somehow "sedated" in pace. It should instead feel like the player is going to wipe out entire armies by himself, and when a player performs well, it should look like he is *carving* divisions of enemies *at ease*. Or: you can be one and they can be thousands, but they have to *fear* you because you're Apocalypse made flesh (well, plane). Otherwise, I don't feel that I am playing a shmup. You're more than halfway there, as the bosses seem on the right track: huge, multi-phase, die splendidly. You just need to make the stages worth being pierced through.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:21 pm 


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randorama, did you watch the trailer or the gameplay video ?

Anyway I totally agree with you : visual is superb but game looks kind of empty.
When I see a cutscene "Durak, I have to go secure the cave before approaching the big target", I want to deserve the next one by having killed 75+ pop-corn ennemies, 20 moderate ones, 5 big badboys and having dodged 250+ bullets, all that in less that a minute if possible ! (my wife is waiting for me, remember ?)
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:32 pm 



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guigui wrote:
randorama, did you watch the trailer or the gameplay video ?


One floating on youtube, ten minutes and several people commenting in the background in various languages (English, Hungarian).

I wrote my impressions based on that.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:10 pm 


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preview up on Destructoid:
http://www.destructoid.com/preview-sine ... 9742.phtml
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:36 pm 


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Quote:
Contrary to most 2D shmups of its kind, Sine Mora does away with health and hit points...


:cry:

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Initially, the game had Hungarian voice-overs as a placeholder, but Grasshopper liked the distinct sound of it so much that the final game will have all voices in Hungarian with subtitles for those who don't speak it.



AWW YEEEEEAH. Hungarian is a cool language.
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:13 pm 


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First level gives me a Porco Rosso feeling :D

@Reiker, any chance that this will be released for PC as well ?
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 Post subject: Re: Sine Mora(Suda 51 shmup)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:38 am 



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Reiker, thanks for the answers. I'll take back my "no 2P no buy" comment.

Are you planning a demo? Though I guess most (all?) XBLA games have one.


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