shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:36 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8394 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 276, 277, 278, 279, 280  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:35 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2016
Posts: 275
Location: Brazil
In Fire Shark is indeed very hard to recover. I remember losing all lifes in a row. Good times.
Maybe its time for me to get serious and complete that second loop.
_________________
Image
my music | book | games


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:54 am 



Joined: 23 Feb 2016
Posts: 324
Location: Chile
wizkid wrote:
you are probably right, but this is about "fairness". for example the plane in flying shark is awfully slow and with a huge hitbox, as a result the very first wave of enemies can kill me easily, the very first mid-boss(or whatever that tank with a lot of hp is considered) already forces me to bomb or else i'll probably die and loose everything, even if you are at max power, there are still situation where enemies come from behind and instantly shoot at you. sure, if i had enough motivation i'd beat it, possibly even quite fast, i'd just need to memorise these tricky moments, but it's still unfair comapred to what i'm used to, and as a result, quite discouraging. though wolflame got me interested in these types of shmups, so i'll probably give it another shot someday.

The hitbox and speed are just fine considering the type of game it is, you can pretty much dodge everything just holding left or right. Oh and you don't really have to worry about using bombs, remember every stage you are restocked with 3 bombs (even if you have more than that). Just because the game requires a bit of memorization doesn't mean it's unfair (and it's not that much memorization anyway)
_________________
1cc list | Replays


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:48 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2009
Posts: 7178
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Flying Shark is probably one of the most fair shooting games around, what are you talking about lol. Every checkpoint in the first loop is recoverable (many of them trivially so), the player fire power gets somewhat ridiculous, and you don't have to worry about bombing because you get so many.
_________________
@trap0xf | daifukkat.su/blog | scores | FIRE LANCER
<S.Yagawa> I like the challenge of "doing the impossible" with older hardware, and pushing it as far as it can go.
<Shepardus> whoever reached the fourth loop in zing zing zip is the modern day sisyphus


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:07 am 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
How's getting killed by a massive plane that comes from behind in the water level fair? How is having no power up items whatsoever to help you recover fair? I just played Hishou Zame and Raiden, and the latter is far more fair. Just becouse a game is easy once you memorise all the bullshit, doesn't mean it's fair.
_________________
restartsyndrome
1cc list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:31 am 


User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2014
Posts: 2420
Location: Singin' in the rain of extends
Vludi wrote:
Just because the game requires a bit of memorization doesn't mean it's unfair (and it's not that much memorization anyway)

It's interesting to note that Toaplan intentionally went for memorization-focused gameplay in Hishouzame so players could improve over time by learning the tricks rather than having to rely on good reflexes and hand-eye coordination:
Q. Why did you make the small boats so treacherous? (laughs)

A. We didn’t want to make a game that players needed really good reflexes or hand eye coordination to clear. We wanted it to be cleared by the tricks and knowledge the player had accumulated through playing. The word “memorizer” didn’t exist then, but that’s the kind of game we were trying to develop. So the small boats are just one part of that overall goal.

They also talked about the slow ship speed (in Tiger Heli, but I think it also applies to Hishouzame):
Q. Please tell us the history and reasons behind the decision to make the ship speed so slow.

A. There’s a definite connection between high speed and that feeling of exhiliration, but if we made the ship faster, we’d have to make the bullets faster in order to keep the difficulty balanced, and we wanted to avoid doing that. We wanted beginners to be able to see the bullets clearly, so making the bullet speed slower was important. Another reason was that increasing the ship speed allows the player more freedom of movement, but that would mean that the make the routes the player could plan through each stage would become much more sloppy, and less strategic.


Regarding Hishouzame, I never had much problem with the enemies coming from behind since I usually hang a little higher up on the screen to help deal with the projectile limit. Lack of powerups when recovering is also fine to me since the stages are pretty doable even at minimum power. My biggest gripe with the game is the enemy wobble that causes enemies to partially scroll with your horizontal movement, which is really annoying with the slow movement speed.
_________________
NTSC-J wrote:
You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

1cc list | Twitch | YouTube


Last edited by Shepardus on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:57 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 2784
Location: Denmarku
Never read that interview before - I think it's pretty interesting that they were actually going intentionally for memorization gameplay. It makes sense though - I always felt that's why R-Type was such a succesful game. By making a difficult game that you will always get further in through experience rather than sheer skill, people will be much more likely to return to the game and pop in more coins.

I don't feel like a lot of Toaplan shooters relied that much on memorization though. While I don't think it's as bad in Flying Shark as it's being made out to be either, most of them don't have enemies popping out from behind in situations where you're likely to be in a bad position. Those planes are exceptionally awful, but when you've seen them once they probably won't kill you again.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:20 am 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Vludi wrote:
The hitbox and speed are just fine considering the type of game it is, you can pretty much dodge everything just holding left or right. Oh and you don't really have to worry about using bombs, remember every stage you are restocked with 3 bombs (even if you have more than that). Just because the game requires a bit of memorization doesn't mean it's unfair (and it's not that much memorization anyway)

i couldn't ask for it to be more fair considering it's 1987, yet it's still more memory heavy than a modern game like wolflame, which is why i mentioned it in the first place.
Honestly you guys are acting as if I called this or any other memory game bad, by modern danmaku standarts wolflame is dad memoshit, so we are in the same boat :mrgreen:
_________________
restartsyndrome
1cc list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:35 am 


User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2014
Posts: 2420
Location: Singin' in the rain of extends
Sumez wrote:
Never read that interview before - I think it's pretty interesting that they were actually going intentionally for memorization gameplay. It makes sense though - I always felt that's why R-Type was such a succesful game. By making a difficult game that you will always get further in through experience rather than sheer skill, people will be much more likely to return to the game and pop in more coins.

I don't feel like a lot of Toaplan shooters relied that much on memorization though. While I don't think it's as bad in Flying Shark as it's being made out to be either, most of them don't have enemies popping out from behind in situations where you're likely to be in a bad position. Those planes are exceptionally awful, but when you've seen them once they probably won't kill you again.

From the same interview collection:
Quote:
For Tiger Heli, we were aiming for a game where the stressful sections and the fun, exhilirating sections would be clearly delineated. We wanted a game that would make you want to play it again after you died, and make you think you could get just a little further. It turns out the replay rate on Tiger Heli was very high, so I think we succeeded in that goal.

I think memorization-based challenges are one way to approach this "just one more time, I'm sure I can do better now" feeling, giving the player a clear path forward for their next credit or at least something to try. For this to work, though, it has to be clear to the player what they did wrong and where they can go from there. Otherwise you get something like a Psikyo game where you try a thousand random things until you find a safespot or a certain tapping rhythm that gets you through the attack. A lone enemy coming from behind achieves this, albeit in a somewhat cheap and not particularly inspired way.

I also don't find Flying Shark to be particularly reliant on memorization, but perhaps it was compared to other games at the time?
_________________
NTSC-J wrote:
You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

1cc list | Twitch | YouTube


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:38 pm 



Joined: 23 Feb 2016
Posts: 324
Location: Chile
wizkid wrote:
How's getting killed by a massive plane that comes from behind in the water level fair? How is having no power up items whatsoever to help you recover fair? I just played Hishou Zame and Raiden, and the latter is far more fair. Just becouse a game is easy once you memorise all the bullshit, doesn't mean it's fair.

And who forces you to stay at the bottom of the screen all the time? and come on it's a 15 min game with 3 or 4 zones where enemies come from behind, you can learn those in a few credits. If your definition of fairness is being an expert in the game just improvising/playing blind in your first credit maybe shmups aren't for you.


wizkid wrote:
Honestly you guys are acting as if I called this or any other memory game bad, by modern danmaku standarts wolflame is dad memoshit, so we are in the same boat :mrgreen:

Danmakus are just as memory heavy as old games, maybe some of them allow you to get a basic clear a bit easier than old games by spamming bombs and playing on reaction, but you will not get anywhere in loop 2/ultra/etc or scoring by improvising alone, memorization is key to any shmup.
_________________
1cc list | Replays


Last edited by Vludi on Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:32 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Quote:
And who forces you to stay at the bottom of the screen all the time?

the situation, i was busy shooting boats in front of me and i was expecting some enemies from lower sides of the screen like in earlier levels, not a big plane from behind.
Quote:
and come on it's a 15 min game with 3 or 4 zones where enemies come from behind, you can learn those in a few credits

like i said before easy doesn't equal fair, not for me.
Quote:
and come on

i alread said that it's normal for a 1987 game, i'm not complaining, but strictly speaking it's not fair, just like floor dissapearing under you in some masochistic smb romhack is not what even people who enjoy this kind of thing would call fair, so i don't really understand why you insist on it being fair.
Quote:
If your definition of fairness is being a expert in the game just improvising/playing blind in your first credit

my definition of fairness is no sudden planes raming you from behind in a checkpoint game where you respawn with a peashooter.
Quote:
maybe some of them allow you to get a basic clear a bit easier than old games by spamming bombs and playing on reaction

most of them let you get basic 1-all, not some, you need memory only in late levels.
Quote:
memorization is key to any shmup.

it will always be a key for a high level play, i'm not arguing with that.
_________________
restartsyndrome
1cc list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:45 pm 



Joined: 23 Feb 2016
Posts: 324
Location: Chile
It took me more memorization and time to 1-All some danmakus than Flying shark, Flying shark only requires a general idea + bombing the busy parts and that's it, the checkpoints aren't even that bad plus you get a lot of lives.
_________________
1cc list | Replays


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:25 pm 



Joined: 23 Jun 2017
Posts: 5
currently playing gokujo parodius in snes, with option revival on, still enjoying blowing weird stuff :)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:29 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2014
Posts: 191
Location: SoCal
A Flying Shark 1-ALL is not difficult at all. In fact, I'd say its the easiest Toaplan game to 1-ALL from what I've played ( besides a Batsugun Special 1-ALL).
Not much memo, plentiful bomb stock, 15 min loop ( with only 4 stages for successive loops), recoverable checkpoints that aren't too bad, and constant extends.

It is more fair compared to Raiden I, where the last couple of stages can easily snowball into a game over if you don't plan your routes accordingly.

You can do etttttttt!
_________________
Youtube
Twitch
Twitter
Discord


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:01 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2014
Posts: 2420
Location: Singin' in the rain of extends
Out Zone 1-ALL is easier but yeah, Flying Shark is one of Toaplan's easier games. Not that I've 1-ALL'd it myself... (when I tried I got fed up with the enemy wobble that I mentioned before and the relatively slow player shots/low projectile limit).

Also, people's definitions of fairness vary greatly.
_________________
NTSC-J wrote:
You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

1cc list | Twitch | YouTube


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:20 am 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
maximo310 wrote:
You can do etttttttt!

i wasn't even playing ettttttttt!
but now i do.
_________________
restartsyndrome
1cc list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:59 am 


User avatar

Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 160
Location: America
Flying Shark is perfectly fair. Especially non-Japanese versions because those versions have lower difficulty and more lives. You might need to drop a few bombs to get that first power up after dying, but after that you are pretty much good to go as long as you pay attention. There is no shortage of spare lives, either. Keep trying, that's what arcade games are about.
_________________
twitchyoutubeclears
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:42 am 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
thanks for support and advice, but i don't really struggle that much with this game, not yet at least. i hate to be that guy who whines about unfair arcade games, as we all have our own definitons about what is fair and not. just brought it up in a conversation about a different shmup and it all snowballed from there, and now people think this game is too hard for me or something, which hurts my ego to be honest, so i started playing it and i will beat it no matter what.
_________________
restartsyndrome
1cc list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:59 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2016
Posts: 275
Location: Brazil
plot twist
_________________
Image
my music | book | games


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:57 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2434
Location: BRA
wizkid wrote:
i started playing it and i will beat it no matter what.

that's the spirit, pure and simple :)
_________________
tantos jogos de nave para jogar, tão pouco tempo!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2015
Posts: 112
Location: The Edge Of The Ape Oven
wizkid wrote:
so i started playing it and i will beat it no matter what.

Keep up this attitude and I guarantee you'll find success.
_________________
ImageImageImage


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:48 am 


User avatar

Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 160
Location: America
We did it, guys. :)
_________________
twitchyoutubeclears
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:52 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 1157
Location: Green hill zone
Giving raiden 3 a serious crack. I'm liking it but goddamn it feels sluggish.
_________________
"Just fire and forget" 1cc List


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Practicing second loop in flying shark, even though i haven't cleared first yet. Do you think it's a good game for a beginner to go full shmup on?
_________________
restartsyndrome
1cc list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:24 pm 



Joined: 23 Feb 2016
Posts: 324
Location: Chile
wizkid wrote:
Practicing second loop in flying shark, even though i haven't cleared first yet. Do you think it's a good game for a beginner to go full shmup on?

You mean multilooping? if you enjoy it then go for it, the second loop isn't much harder than the first one, the game reaches max rank around loop 4 or so.
_________________
1cc list | Replays


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:40 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 43
Yes, multilooping. I just feel like beating only first loop in such a short and fairly easy game won't be satisfying, so i'd like to do second too, maybe more. Even if i won't, at least my score will be higher and that's always nice.
_________________
restartsyndrome
1cc list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:09 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2013
Posts: 130
Still playing Garegga's Arrange on PS4.
I need to study the MARK2 bosses a bit. I am dumping a lot of resources on them.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:45 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 518
Location: las vegas NV
I finally set up a dedicated vert cab, so I'm revisiting some games that have been in storage for a while; Batrider and Mushihimesama. I also picked up a MERCS board recently, should be a fun 1cc if I can find the time.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 5165
Playing a tiny bit of Caladrius Blaze here and there on break.

I would call the patterns and stage design only "solid" (outside the truly excellent finalie, and a few neat late game gimmick attacks), but mechanically this has to be one of my favorite new(ish) shmups in years. Each character in the game has a diverse roster of unique weapons encourage you to exercise finesse and variety in your shooting and intuitively rewards your score for doing exactly that. Really makes you master your characters gimmicks and puts an emphasis on shooting that you don't see a ton these days. Love it.
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:58 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 2784
Location: Denmarku
I've considered picking up Caladrius on multiple occasions, but every time I'm reminded about the shooting clothes off girls gimmick, I'm immediately shunned away. I don't think I could ever support something that patheticically immature, even if the game is otherwise good >_>


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:11 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 5165
To be fair you can shoot the dudes clothes too. If you think of it that way, it's actually pretty progressive!
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8394 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 276, 277, 278, 279, 280  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Iori Branford, LaTraille and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group