How do you feel about chaining?

Generiname · Post by **Generiname** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:11 am

I just mentioned in another thread I've been playing DDP DOJ nonstop lately and it's got me thinking about chaining. I'm curious to know how everyone feels about chaining.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of it but if I think back to late last year/early this year when I was playing mushihimesama every day for at least an hour or two I was getting quite good at chaining, getting some nice scores, early extends and having fun. It's hard to tell if the chaining was actually fun because the game was (is) so damn enjoyable. I think I was enjoying the sucess more then the task itself.

In these games with chaining does a good consistent chain actually aid in survival? DOJ looks to me like a good chain might free the screen of a bullet pattern or two due to killing off the enemy quicker then usual or whatever.

I'm getting quite used to the game, it's been sitting around for a while because; tbh I was a bit intimidated by it but after many hours it's just like any other cave game survival wise. I can survive better now then I ever have and chaining is the next step. I don't know if I'm looking forward to this or not.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:01 am

I tend to like chaining systems best when they're "optional"...they tend to require a good chunk of memorization to get right, and while I'm not a huge fan of memorization in shmups in general, I tend to not mind it if it's not the driving factor behind the game. Speaking of DoDonPachi, that's the sort of chaining system I'm usually okay with: you can easily play (and beat) the game without bothering with it, but once you've gotten decent at that you can "take it to the next level" and refine your chaining. In games like Radiant Silvergun and Mars Matrix, however, if you don't chain your weapons won't get stronger and you'll likely be flattened in later levels: I still like both games, but I regard their chaining systems as an impediment to accessibility (although, to be fair, there are ways to "cheat" and play without chaining if you want in both, though you have to work to get them).

My viewpoint, anyways.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:16 am

hate hate hate

Triple Lei · Post by **Triple Lei** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:45 am

I think it reached perfection in DOJ...

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:08 am

Depends on the chaining type. I like Treasure's/G.Rev's take on them.

CodeMonkey · Post by **CodeMonkey** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:32 am

I am also a huge fan of chaining when it is optional like Ikaruga or DoDonPachi. When you can play the game through for fun, and the advanced playing styles of things like chaining for high score are optional I think that is perfect. That way you get gameplay value at many levels of play.

I also agree that if performance early in the game drastically impacts your ability to succeed later that is often very frustrating. Essentially I look at it as how fast your are notified of your failure. Any game where you can fail but not feel the impact for a substantial amount of time is usually aggravating. Relatively immediate impact of failure is generally good in my opinion. Particularly in in games where you can save. Nothing like saving the game at some point and then realizing the situation you saved in leaves your chances of survival for the upcoming battle pretty poor.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:53 am

What BulletMagnet said.

tviks · Post by **tviks** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:08 pm

I'm just happy that Gradius is one of the last shmups that doesn't implement this lame concept one way or another.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:11 pm

It's okay if it's optional, like in Battle Bakraid, but games like Ikaruga where the scoring system is anal about it, yuk!

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:43 pm

FatCobra wrote:It's okay if it's optional, like in Battle Bakraid, but games like Ikaruga where the scoring system is anal about it, yuk!

Explain.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:34 pm

Item chaining and enemy chaining are very different. Had a topic about it, must've been on the old board.

Enemy chaining sucks. If it doesn't look cool to see performed, it's a crappy scoring system. Think about it. Ikaruga is by far the most creative of the lot, and replays of it are entertaining. Good use of a bad scoring idea. DDP, not entertaining.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:42 pm

Rob wrote:If it doesn't look cool to see performed, it's a crappy scoring system.

Spoken like a true hardcore type, eh?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:48 pm

I'm a casual shmupper.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:51 pm

Rob wrote:I'm a casual shmupper.

ban plz

No one can dis chaining like in the holy Mars Matrix and live to tell it

You hate Mars Matrix, i guess, uh?!?

(????

)

ghibli99 · Post by **ghibli99** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:25 pm

First reply pretty much said it... when it's optional and works well, that's the best. The Cave games can, generally speaking, be played as just a traditional blast-a-thon or as a very technical points/chain-driven affair. I love that about their games. The chaining aspect of DOJ is also what brings me back to it year after year, so I gotta give it props.

Limbrooke · Post by **Limbrooke** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:57 pm

dai jou bu wrote:Depends on the chaining type. I like Treasure's/G.Rev's take on them.

G.Rev? I haven't looked into G.Rev beyond Under Defeat but I wasn't aware that either Senko no Ronde or Border Down incorperated such aspects.

FatCobra wrote:It's okay if it's optional, like in Battle Bakraid, but games like Ikaruga where the scoring system is anal about it, yuk!

Optional chaining in Bakraid?
Sorry for the doubtfulness but don't you need x64 multiplier, ie 'chaining' up to that point, to score well?

As far as my take on chaining. I'd say if it's fun to do so, then why not. I could care less if it's 'entertaining' to watch. If I can have fun playing it then that's all that matters.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:07 pm

Limbrooke wrote:
G.Rev? I haven't looked into G.Rev beyond Under Defeat but I wasn't aware that either Senko no Ronde or Border Down incorperated such aspects.

I think he's talking about the the break laser in Border Down and the way the number of bullets cancelled acts as a multiplier for enemies destroyed by the laser.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:10 pm

Limbrooke wrote: G.Rev? I haven't looked into G.Rev beyond Under Defeat but I wasn't aware that either Senko no Ronde or Border Down incorperated such aspects.

Short burst chaining in BD. I find this much less repulsive than general chaining, but I still couldn't get into it beyond a few obvious places.

I'd say if it's fun to do so, then why not. I could care less if it's 'entertaining' to watch.

You could?

howmuchkeefe · Post by **howmuchkeefe** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:52 pm

Sure. Suppose Hitler got a hang nail...

Limbrooke · Post by **Limbrooke** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:10 am

Rob wrote:
Limbrooke wrote: G.Rev? I haven't looked into G.Rev beyond Under Defeat but I wasn't aware that either Senko no Ronde or Border Down incorperated such aspects.
Short burst chaining in BD. I find this much less repulsive than general chaining, but I still couldn't get into it beyond a few obvious places.

The more you know...
Perhaps I'll have to examine BD one day when I can afford it.

Rob wrote:
Limbrooke wrote: I'd say if it's fun to do so, then why not. I could care less if it's 'entertaining' to watch.
You could?

Well if you're into that whole audience thing. By all means...

Never_Scurred · Post by **Never_Scurred** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:42 am

I enjoy it in Dodonpachi but in DOJ, yiiiiicccckkkk....Ikaruga is cool cause at least you can be creative with it. But then again with DOJ I like it cause at least it forces you to learn how to play the game at some point as opposed to just playing through. Good thing it came with that replay disc.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:24 am

Limbrooke wrote:Optional chaining in Bakraid?
Sorry for the doubtfulness but don't you need x64 multiplier, ie 'chaining' up to that point, to score well?

"Optional" in terms of the player not needing to do so just to finish the game. Playing for score is a whole other ball of wax.

Limbrooke · Post by **Limbrooke** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:31 am

BulletMagnet wrote:
Limbrooke wrote:Optional chaining in Bakraid?
Sorry for the doubtfulness but don't you need x64 multiplier, ie 'chaining' up to that point, to score well?
"Optional" in terms of the player not needing to do so just to finish the game. Playing for score is a whole other ball of wax.

Optional chaining in that sense would mean one could not chain and still get a top score if the gameplay dictates. From what I've seen the x64 multiplier seems to be a key point. Then again I don't wish to get indepth here, just clarify is all.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:38 am

Yeah, when I say "optional" I'm mainly talking about just going for a 1CC. I guess others think differently when they hear that word.

Triple Lei · Post by **Triple Lei** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:45 am

Rob wrote:I'm a casual shmupper.

Sorry, but I refuse to believe that anyone who scores higher than me in Gunbird 2 is only a "casual" shmupper.

As they say, there's no shame in being beaten by the best...

Never_Scurred wrote:I enjoy it in Dodonpachi but in DOJ, yiiiiicccckkkk....Ikaruga is cool cause at least you can be creative with it. But then again with DOJ I like it cause at least it forces you to learn how to play the game at some point as opposed to just playing through. Good thing it came with that replay disc.

I dunno... Ikaruga is very, very pretty to look at, but you can't be creative because there is a best way of chaining... and it's on the Appreciate DVD (and some of the replays at ikaruga.co.uk). A guy can't help but feel that his methods are only second-rate if they aren't exactly like WIZ's methods. (or maybe that's just me...)

DOJ, on the other hand, offers plenty of ways to chain. And then when you add Hypers to the mix...

Limbrooke · Post by **Limbrooke** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:18 am

BulletMagnet wrote:Yeah, when I say "optional" I'm mainly talking about just going for a 1CC. I guess others think differently when they hear that word.

Maybe that's the bain of my ambitions.
I wish to do well, by executing the proper techniques, however survival is something that needs to be addressed before-hand something I rarely ever do...

I suppose my results speak for themselves.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:31 am

Bah, I play mostly for survival and I'm still awful.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:32 am

play for score, and you'll seem less awful

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:34 am

Preposterous. I do have a reputation to keep up around here, you know.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:55 am

BulletMagnet wrote:Preposterous. I do have a reputation to keep up around here, you know.

Says the person that scored 59th out of 71 players in the first week of the tournament.
Methinks you've dented your "reputation" with that performance somewhat. ^_-

As for the topic, I'm not too bothered by chaining in shooters. Some systems are more irritating than others (colour chaining in Ikaruga and Silvergun being one) but my main interest is the score I get at the end, so I learn to deal with it.

shmups.system11.org

How do you feel about chaining?

Chaining?

How do you feel about chaining?