Cave games ranked by difficulty

[Skykid]

People are seriously underplaying Espgaluda 2's difficulty in these lists. Let me know when you all get that 1CC.

[adversity1]

People are seriously underplaying Espgaluda 2's difficulty in these lists. Let me know when you all get that 1CC.

:thumbs up:

[Snake]

Finally put some time into the Deathsmiles games in the arcade. They seem easier than the rest of the Cave library.

I find Dangun Feveron the hardest. Those bullets are hauling ass.

[renardqueenston]

i keep seeing esprade early on in the lists, but along with espgaluda 2 and daioujou i honestly have the most trouble with it for some god-forsaken reason. probably unfamiliarity.

[Skykid]

i keep seeing esprade early on in the lists, but along with espgaluda 2 and daioujou i honestly have the most trouble with it for some god-forsaken reason. probably unfamiliarity.

I think a lot of people just throw stuff up there without properly playing the games tbh. If you haven't cleared it or at least come close to clearing it, you can't really judge the difficulty.
The last couple of levels on esprade are tough, with the boss on the Shinjuku train line and Ms Garra herself being damned hard.

Likewise my Espgaluda 2 mention. Peeps are on crack if they think that's easier than Dodonpachi and DFK 1.5...or even Progear.

[captpain]

ESP RaDe would be a lot less difficult if didn't have the weird hitbox positioning/wiggling player sprite thing.

[chempop]

I have made a list based on my experience, games left out I don't have enough play time to judge. I'd be curious if any games stand out as being in the wrong tier.

EASY
-------
Deathsmiles
Deathsmiles 2
ESPGaluda
MuchiMuchi Pork (1st loop)
Dodonpachi (1st loop)
Dodonpachi DFK (1st loop)
Mushihimesama Futari Black Label (original and maniac)

MEDIUM
-----------
Guwange
Progear
ESPrade
DOJ (1st loop)
Ketsui (1st loop)
Mushi (original and maniac)
Futari (original and maniac)

HARD
--------
Pink Sweets
Dangun Feveron
Galuda 2
DOJ (2nd-loop)
Ketsui (2nd loop)
Mushi Ultra
Futari Ultra
Ibara

[Sumez]

Thanks! Don't find too many PT fans 'round here.

PT?
I'm really bad with acronyms.

[Sumez]

I think a lot of people just throw stuff up there without properly playing the games tbh. If you haven't cleared it or at least come close to clearing it, you can't really judge the difficulty.
The last couple of levels on esprade are tough, with the boss on the Shinjuku train line and Ms Garra herself being damned hard.

I was thinking the same. I've credit spammed Ms Garra into hell without figuring out how to dodge her crazy "1 million hands" attacks when they cross eachother. It looks easy enough in theory, but I just keep failing. I'm sure it's easy once you get the trick, but as long as I don't own the board myself there's no chance I'll ever learn it.

[wiNteR]

I have made a list based on my experience, games left out I don't have enough play time to judge. I'd be curious if any games stand out as being in the wrong tier.

Seems to be fair enough, but I don't think you can compare any of the two loops and ultras with the other single-loop games. But I don't have any experience with half of the games there.

However, what I can say is that you might really be over-estimating dangun feveron there. In fact, it's easier than ketsui's first loop, if you are going purely for survival, although you won't get much of a score that way. And even for score, the first four stages aren't difficult to chain in themselves (maximizing it is another thing). Stage-5 seemed really hard to chain though, without any proper pre-planning. Perhaps it could be that using speed 3 makes the game easier, because of more precision, but takes away some the chain maximizing capacity.

[Deca]

I don't think some people realize how easy first loops for DDP and DP are, if you just bomb at the right time. And for danmaku games bombing at right time is relatively easier.

A lot of people say this but in the last two stages I have a LOT of trouble :/ I have several 1CCs and DDP's first loop is not among them.

i keep seeing esprade early on in the lists, but along with espgaluda 2 and daioujou i honestly have the most trouble with it for some god-forsaken reason. probably unfamiliarity.

I'm right there with you. It probably doesn't help that I've never liked esprade at all to begin with, but for a while I was pretty focused on getting that 1CC...Maybe it's just a personal thing but ridiculous length of the boss fights seems to give me the most trouble, too many unforced errors.

[KidQuaalude]

Thanks! Don't find too many PT fans 'round here.

PT?
I'm really bad with acronyms.

<pedantry>
Especially as 'PT' isn't an acronym. An acronym is an abbreviation that spells out another word.
</pendantry>

[Anesthetize]

Thanks! Don't find too many PT fans 'round here.

PT?
I'm really bad with acronyms.

Aphex had commented on my avatar, which is the cover of an album by Porcupine Tree.

[Skykid]

I have made a list based on my experience, games left out I don't have enough play time to judge. I'd be curious if any games stand out as being in the wrong tier.

A few I'd say. Based on either playing for a clear or for serious score, I'd change the following (I'll just add notes to your list:)

EASY
-------
Deathsmiles
Deathsmiles 2
ESPGaluda (Should be in medium)
MuchiMuchi Pork (1st loop) (Should be in medium)
Dodonpachi (1st loop) (Should be in medium)
Dodonpachi DFK (1st loop) (If you're playing Strong, it's easy, if you're playing Power and for score, it's Medium)
Mushihimesama Futari Black Label (original and maniac)

MEDIUM
-----------
Guwange
Progear
ESPrade
DOJ (1st loop) (This loop dissecting is a bit silly. This is hard from the start.)
Ketsui (1st loop) (Same as above, belongs in hard)
Mushi (original and maniac)
Futari (original and maniac)

HARD
--------
Pink Sweets
Dangun Feveron
Galuda 2
DOJ (2nd-loop)
Ketsui (2nd loop)
Mushi Ultra
Futari Ultra
Ibara
(No probs with the above.)

That's how I see it anyhow.

[Sumez]

<pedantry>
Especially as 'PT' isn't an acronym. An acronym is an abbreviation that spells out another word.
</pendantry>

Thanks I didn't know that (English is not my first language)

[Clessx]

Here"s my list of games I played

(needless to say I never 1cc"ed any of them )

===EASY===
Espgaluda
Donpachi
Progear
Dodonpachi
Guwange
Ketsui
DDP Daioujou
Esprade
===HARD===

I didnt include Dangun Feveron because I cannot get used to it. Scoring feels awkward , ship not slowing down while pressing shooting button is uncomfortable , and theme also dont appeal much.

I think of Esprade to be hardest because of a bit weird character movement , especially after level 4 , die often while trying to find a way between bullets , even I thought I could dodge. Even with more bullets in Daioujou or Progear I can do better. Also hitbox placement seems a bit different than what I am used to. Still one of my favourite Cave games , though

What do you think about Esprade"s difficulty ?

[Skykid]

Here"s my list of games I played

(needless to say I never 1cc"ed any of them )

===EASY===
Espgaluda
Donpachi
Progear
Dodonpachi
Guwange
Ketsui
DDP Daioujou
Esprade
===HARD===

This thread sucks balls.

[Clessx]

Here"s my list of games I played

(needless to say I never 1cc"ed any of them )

===EASY===
Espgaluda
Donpachi
Progear
Dodonpachi
Guwange
Ketsui
DDP Daioujou
Esprade
===HARD===

This thread sucks balls.

Huh ?
I just posted a list based on my impressions after playing the games. It"s completely subjective , and my personal opinion as a gamer who just enjoys the games , and dont care about being good or proffessional or anything. It"s not mathematics , you know

[Skykid]

Huh ?
I just posted a list based on my impressions after playing the games. It"s completely subjective , and my personal opinion as a gamer who just enjoys the games , and dont care about being good or proffessional or anything. It"s not mathematics , you know

The comment isn't directed at you, I just used your post as another example of how pointless it is to spend 3 pages trying to rank the difficulty of Cave's back catalogue when everyone has wildly different opinions, the variation of which are down to a lack of experience with the games being listed.

If the thread had an accurate consensus it would be worthwhile, but it doesn't. So it sucks, let's kill it and move on.

[chempop]

Skykid, are you nuts man?! You're ruffled about 3 pages of difficulty discussion (many of which are your posts) when this forum literally has dozens and dozens of pages about importing delays, slowdown accuracy, and @$#*¥ scanlines!!!

This is one of the only threads I've been interested in for a long time. I've only 1CC a handful of CAVE's games, and it helps me decide on which other titles may be within my reach, and which I should probably hold out on until my skills improve.

Btw, I appreciated your response to my list, I'm still not sure if I'd call ESPgaluda or Dodonpachi (1st loop) medium difficulty, but I enjoyed reading your comments none-the-less.

[Anesthetize]

Huh ?
I just posted a list based on my impressions after playing the games. It"s completely subjective , and my personal opinion as a gamer who just enjoys the games , and dont care about being good or proffessional or anything. It"s not mathematics , you know

The comment isn't directed at you, I just used your post as another example of how pointless it is to spend 3 pages trying to rank the difficulty of Cave's back catalogue when everyone has wildly different opinions, the variation of which are down to a lack of experience with the games being listed.

If the thread had an accurate consensus it would be worthwhile, but it doesn't. So it sucks, let's kill it and move on.

The point of this thread was not to come up with a consensus on an exact list sorted by difficulty. The point was to hear different personal opinions on which games are harder than other games, hopefully including some thoughts on what makes them hard or not.

I've certainly enjoyed hearing totally different responses, and I'm glad at least some other people have enjoyed the thread. There's no need to try to kill a thread simply because you are not interested in it or don't understand it. I do appreciate the feedback you've given so far, though, since you have more experience with a lot of these games than I do.

[Skykid]

This is one of the only threads I've been interested in for a long time. I've only 1CC a handful of CAVE's games, and it helps me decide on which other titles may be within my reach, and which I should probably hold out on until my skills improve.

I'm not ruffled, it just doesn't work. You said you want to use it as an informative guide so you know which game to tackle based on its difficulty, but the results are so all over the place you could end up leaving Esprade aside because it's impossibly hard or take on Espgaluda II or Progear because they're a walk in the park.

I think you were correct to break the software down by Easy, Medium and Hard - I'd agree Cave stuff falls into three difficulty categories (rather than just easy/hard), but since when are Dodonpachi, Donpachi, Muchi Muchi Pork easy? Easier, sure, but compared to something like Futari BL or Deathsmiles they're much tougher.
I'd only put the following games into an 'easy' category (EDIT: Oh sod it, I'll just do a full list based on personal experience and then leave you to debate)

EASY://

Deathsmiles
Deathsmiles 2
Futari BL (Original)
DFK 1.5 (Strong Type/Playing for survival only)

MEDIUM://

Espgaluda
Donpachi
Dodonpachi
Esprade
Mushihimesama (Original & Maniac)
Mushihimesama Futari (Original & Maniac)
Futari BL (Maniac)
Guwange
Progear
DFK 1.5 (Power Type)
DFK BL
Ketsupachi
Muchi Muchi Pork

HARD://

DOJ
DOJ BL
Ketsui
Espgaluda II
Mushi/Mushi Futari/Futari BL: Ultra/God modes
Ibara
Pink Sweets
Dangun Feveron

...IMO

[chempop]

Yes, but some of the lists I know enough to take with a grain on salt. Even a list from someone who hasn't 1-Alled any of the games still interests me because it shows a first impression from a novice. Your list looks good to me, I think you are probably right that it was silly to differentiate 1st and 2nd loops, although having cleared the 1st DOJ-BL loop doesn't seem anything close to a 1CC of an Ultra mode.

[Skykid]

although having cleared the 1st DOJ-BL loop doesn't seem anything close to a 1CC of an Ultra mode.

I'd agree, but it's still above medium. Well done on stamping your manly credentials all over that game btw.

[Aliquantic]

The problem is that there's just too much variation on how easy or hard any one game will be for a particular player due to varying playing styles (I find Mushi or Futari 1.5 to be a lot nastier than a DOJBL 1-ALL, which seems pretty unusual), but mainly due to playing for score to some extend over pure surviving or just plain old rank (Deathsmiles ranks high up on the list with Death Mode and EX stages, Muchi Muchi Pork or DFKBL obviously).

Of course you can always try to only consider surviving, but it's very hard to do given how entangled some of those scoring systems are with everything else (Futari BL Original in particularly, which is plain hellish when going for scores over 1 billion). Some games work better when considered for survival only, like DOJBL, but even then there's a fair amount of difference between having a high hyper rank or keeping it down with bombs/dying.

Just try them all and let God sort you out

[captpain]

The problem is that there's just too much variation on how easy or hard any one game will be for a particular player due to varying playing styles (I find Mushi or Futari 1.5 to be a lot nastier than a DOJBL 1-ALL, which seems pretty unusual), but mainly due to playing for score to some extend over pure surviving or just plain old rank (Deathsmiles ranks high up on the list with Death Mode and EX stages, Muchi Muchi Pork or DFKBL obviously).

Of course you can always try to only consider surviving, but it's very hard to do given how entangled some of those scoring systems are with everything else (Futari BL Original in particularly, which is plain hellish when going for scores over 1 billion). Some games work better when considered for survival only, like DOJBL, but even then there's a fair amount of difference between having a high hyper rank or keeping it down with bombs/dying.

Just try them all and let God sort you out

Scoring isn't really closely tangled with survival in Cave's games for the most part. You can choose to take as few risks as possible and survive, or take more risks for the sake of increasing score.

Obviously there are some games that are excepted.

[Aliquantic]

Sorry, what I meant is that it'd be unusual to play for pure survival only, and "accidental" scoring is going to happen to varying degrees in most games (Ketsui comes to mind of a tough game where most players are still not going to ignore the scoring system altogether in the first loop). So even when playing with a 1cc in mind, there will be a fair amount variation in the amount of risks taken by any player.

Or to rephrase it differently, individual playstyle is tricky to take into account since there isn't that much of a difficulty gap between the majority of Cave games, with a few obvious exceptions on both ends of the scale (Deathsmiles at all rank 1 or DFK 1.5 Strong is about as far away from most games as are the Ultras/rank 999 or the Ibaras to a lesser extend)

[Deca]

Man, with all the talk of espgaluda being easy I figured once I got around to playing it I'd be able to 1cc it or at least see the final boss in one sitting.

Well, I finally got around to playing it and I don't know where people are coming from with this easy nonsense, I'm not really finding it much easier than any other cave game. It's not BRUTAL, I just wouldn't go out of my way to call it easy. Best so far is 4th boss...I'm guessing it has 5 stages?

[captpain]

Sorry, what I meant is that it'd be unusual to play for pure survival only, and "accidental" scoring is going to happen to varying degrees in most games (Ketsui comes to mind of a tough game where most players are still not going to ignore the scoring system altogether in the first loop). So even when playing with a 1cc in mind, there will be a fair amount variation in the amount of risks taken by any player.

Or to rephrase it differently, individual playstyle is tricky to take into account since there isn't that much of a difficulty gap between the majority of Cave games, with a few obvious exceptions on both ends of the scale (Deathsmiles at all rank 1 or DFK 1.5 Strong is about as far away from most games as are the Ultras/rank 999 or the Ibaras to a lesser extend)

I don't think play style is a real thing, though... there aren't many different, equally-valid ways to play a game for survival well. Usually, there are choices that are clearly better. There will be variation, but it boils down to skill level. Also, "accidental" scoring (I know what you mean) will never produce a score like an actual scorer or involve the same level of risk.

[captpain]

Man, with all the talk of espgaluda being easy I figured once I got around to playing it I'd be able to 1cc it or at least see the final boss in one sitting.

Well, I finally got around to playing it and I don't know where people are coming from with this easy nonsense, I'm not really finding it much easier than any other cave game. Best so far is 4th boss...I'm guessing it has 5 stages?

If you've got Cave's style pretty well under your belt, it's not a difficult game. You'll get familiar with it. The game only gets really interesting in stages 5-1 and 5-2 (you're right -- 5 full stages).

The key is knowing when to use the barrier.

Probably the most helpful thing to consider is that you use WAY less of your barrier when you bomb deliberately, as compared to the defensive auto-bombing that happens in Purple/Red Bullet Mode. That takes up half of your bomb, while you can get plenty out of a deliberate bomb.