Under Defeat HD

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:13 am

I received my copy of the 360 port today. All I can say is this is one messy fucking port:

The slowdown isn't consistent between yoko and tate. For example, during the stage 5 boss battle, the game operates at full speed in yoko but slows to about 50 percent speed for much of the battle in tate (makes dodging the exploding fireball attack much easier but I find it harder to dodge the dual vulcan cannons because the whole thing is too slow and it throws off my timing royally). Neither display option correctly reproduces the exact slowdown of the NAOMI/DC version.

Enemies can fire at the player off-screen (this is HUGE as it leads to numerous instances of attacks that seemingly come from nowhere)... hell, many begin firing way too early (this can be immensely problematic when those enemies are the homing rocket launchers).

Audio balancing is horrific! The shot noise is way too damn loud and the sounds associated with your option pod readying to fire are too quiet (I'm constantly straining to hear the whistle that lets me know that the option pod is ready to be deployed). Also, when you stop firing, as your last shot leaves the screen, the game plays the sound effect for your rocket pod firing... Why? Not only is it annoying, it's also terribly distracting, especially since it's the same audio cue as the homing rockets that certain enemy tanks can fire at you.

The lock-on reticle behaves oddly. As a result, some targets become harder to lock-on to properly with either an option pod or the helicopter's main fire. For example, during the stage 4 boss battle, the cannons that the boss deploys take longer to kill because the copter's shot begins wildly spraying instead of simply firing straight down into the targets.

Some targets become active too early or remain active for longer than they should. Particularly in stage 2, things like the bridge of the first battle ship out at sea (can be shot at way sooner than it should be) as well as the boss (the bridge remains an active target during the entire fight but it's supposed to become inactive for a period between when the fourth chopper on the left appears until the bridge fully scrolls back onto screen for the final battle) don't behave correctly.

The helicopter's auto-fire rate is different (there is no longer a gap between salvos). I find this does some weird things with the hit-flash making it a bit harder to tell when a target is sufficiently sparking to take splash-damage from a rocket.

The large enemy tank fire audio at the beginning of stage 5 doesn't fade up with the rest of the sound effects.. it simply comes it at full strength.

With all that said, scoring is close enough to be comparable with the NAOMI/DC version.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:28 am

I agree on the option sound effects, they are more prominent in the DC version. I could not balance it myself with audio options, it seems way to soft.

Jeneki · Post by **Jeneki** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:33 am

Jeneki wrote:Is New Order basically the same arrangement, or did they mix up the enemy placement or something to make it different?

Bumping this question. Is New Order the same game with dual stick control, or a new arrangement?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:47 am

Jeneki wrote:
Jeneki wrote:Is New Order basically the same arrangement, or did they mix up the enemy placement or something to make it different?
Bumping this question. Is New Order the same game with dual stick control, or a new arrangement?

It is an Arrange Mode. Enemy placement is significantly different and the option pods have different deployment/recharge times. The helicopter can rotate further (nearly a full 180 degrees) and moves much faster along both the X and Y axis.

And for those wondering, despite the fact that the DVD included with the LE is labeled as NTSC Region-2, it is infact, NTSC Region-0 (the disc is exactly the same as the one included with the Soldier Of Fortune Under Defeat super-play release).

By the way, I've been playing this on my tate 4:3 CRT and was not able to get full-screen display in Arcade Mode. When I change my display settings in the 360 system menu to Anamorphic Widescreen, it 'fixes' the in game menus, but the game is displayed in a crunched format (there are black bars at the top and bottom of the image, so the play-area is basically square). When I adjust the in-game overscan option, the left and right sides of the playfield are expanded beyond the field of view. I do not see an independent X and Y axis scaler option.

chempop · Post by **chempop** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:41 am

Wow, I appreciate the info Kiken but I'm disappointed to hear about those issues. Crap, now I am not sure if I should get the 360 port, or buy back the DC version (just sold mine...)

ZenErik · Post by **ZenErik** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:31 am

Heh. I'm glad I didn't buy Under Defeat HD now. I will reconsider if issues are patched, but I don't expect much in that regard from G.rev.

I almost feel obligated to support them because there are so few shmup developers left but putting out botched ports isn't really helping my opinion of their work...

rancor · Post by **rancor** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:38 am

chempop wrote:Wow, I appreciate the info Kiken but I'm disappointed to hear about those issues. Crap, now I am not sure if I should get the 360 port, or buy back the DC version (just sold mine...)

Yeah - After two days with the x360 version now, I'm thinking that the DC port is still the one to have.

There are a lot of issues that need to be fixed.

djsiegfried · Post by **djsiegfried** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:26 am

ZenErik wrote:Heh. I'm glad I didn't buy Under Defeat HD now. I will reconsider if issues are patched, but I don't expect much in that regard from G.rev.

I almost feel obligated to support them because there are so few shmup developers left but putting out botched ports isn't really helping my opinion of their work...

Will see. My package is on it's way...

Phellan Wolf · Post by **Phellan Wolf** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:25 pm

So in the end Arcade mode is not a good port from the Dc&Naomi ver isn't it?? I would like to know how comparable are both ports. IMO it will be really interesting to see wich one is the best port

stryc9 · Post by **stryc9** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:35 pm

So TSJ said he sussed out how to get rid of the black borders in arcade mode by messing with the console settings, and now Kiken says you can't..

What is going on here? does one of the ports fit 4:3 monitors and the other one doesn't, or do neither?

If the version I have ordered (360) doesn't fit the 4:3 it will be a first for me, and I have all the shmups on the console, never had issues with Guwange for example. But then that's what CAVE fixed with the patch wasn't it?

It is such a simple thing to just get this basic shit sorted out for the release of a vertical shmup

PS @ Kiken: does New Order feel like it was built with an arcade stick in mind or is it just feeling tacked on, on account of the twinstick mode?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:43 pm

Phellan Wolf wrote:So in the end Arcade mode is not a good port from the Dc&Naomi ver isn't it?? I would like to know how comparable are both ports. IMO it will be really interesting to see which one is the best port

In terms of replicating the NAOMI original, the DC version is still the definitive home release of this game. If folks are interested in seeing an anal KingGorro53 style breakdown of everything that was changed, I can capture footage from both releases and post an analysis.

stryc9 wrote:If the version I have ordered (360) doesn't fit the 4:3 it will be a first for me, and I have all the shmups on the console, never had issues with Guwange for example. But then that's what CAVE fixed with the patch wasn't it?

Guwange, before it got patched, displayed exactly the same as UD HD in tate does now. If there is some other option I'm missing to correct the display, I'd love to hear what that is.

stryc9 wrote:PS @ Kiken: does New Order feel like it was built with an arcade stick in mind or is it just feeling tacked on, on account of the twinstick mode?

I played the mode once last night just to give it a whirl. I was using my joystick and the ridiculous speed of the copter rotation was making the mode a chore to play (dropping option pods at correct angles as well as locking the shot in a preferred direction was really awkward).

stryc9 · Post by **stryc9** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:50 pm

Thats what I was afraid of. Lets hope G-Rev patch this thing up at least.

So it looks like currently the best (only)? way to play the game effectively is on a 16:9 display (where my PS3 is set up - I would have got that version had I known) on a stupid control pad. Great stuff.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:09 pm

There are some legitimate complaints here, but i think new order is a blast to play with the twin stick. The added degree of rotation and ability to target enemies while moving is a bonus. I wont talk about accuracy of the arcade version because obviously its not the same, but then again i did not buy this for a direct port. Still enjoyable to say the least and if a patch is released then even better.

Zaarock · Post by **Zaarock** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:51 pm

G.Rev did add 4:3 display support and fixed some bugs in a patch for Strania.. they better do the same here since this is a disc release. The amount of glitches and differences sounds pretty bad though :/

TSJ · Post by **TSJ** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:27 pm

Just to clarify, changing the console settings to widescreen gave me a normal sized arcade screen untated. Just tried in tate and yeah, you can't get it fullscreen, though it is quite close. You're going to have gaps at the top and bottom of the screen.

Really loving this game now. Unlocked the New Order second loop yesterday; it's reversed and recoloured! Funny how a left to right reverse can make the stages seem quite fresh.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:10 am

Got mine today. The graphics are really nice.

As mentioned earlier, the audio is weird. No matter how I adjust the music or sound affects, they never sound like the do(in terms of balance) on the DC.

It's true, missiles tend to "come out of nowhere".

Overall, it's nice...but they need to patch a few things. Being a disc based release, I would hold them to it. I mean, that was expensive for a game, that most people would expect to just be on XBLA.

ExitPlanetDust · Post by **ExitPlanetDust** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:34 pm

TSJ wrote:Just to clarify, changing the console settings to widescreen gave me a normal sized arcade screen untated. Just tried in tate and yeah, you can't get it fullscreen, though it is quite close. You're going to have gaps at the top and bottom of the screen.

Really loving this game now. Unlocked the New Order second loop yesterday; it's reversed and recoloured! Funny how a left to right reverse can make the stages seem quite fresh.

So you are saying that you can stretch the image by forcing widescreen on a 4:3 TV, but that it still doesn't fix the issue?

Can someone whip out a camera and take a picture of the ratio issues? No one's talking about whether the issue is present in the PS3 version or not. Though, at this point I would assume it has the same issues. Pictures? Video?

I plan to do this myself, but my PS3 copy is still in Postal limbo somewhere.

brentsg · Post by **brentsg** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:49 pm

If you have a 16:9 display then by all means, pick this up. Maybe the DC version is more faithful, and I guess if you still keep a DC hooked up all the time then play that. Personally, I have to dig a DC out if I want to play UD. Of course this means that I never play UD.

Chacranajxy · Post by **Chacranajxy** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:56 pm

I still keep my Dreamcast hooked up, so it looks like I'll be sticking with that version... barring a patch, of course.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:21 pm

I've noticed that there's a glitch on the Arcade Mode Online Leaderboards: the stage reached doesn't always display correctly (just like DDP DOJ BLEX). For example, on my top score run, I made it to 2-5 (lost my last life at the trio of hover-tanks) but the leaderboards list it as stage 2-4. The guy below me has a score of 3.9 million and the game lists the stage reached as a 2-0 (1-End)... it's simply not possible to score that high and not trigger the second loop (he probably got to stage 2-3).

Bee Cool · Post by **Bee Cool** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:55 am

Quality port, by quality port makers.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:22 am

Ok, here is a visual breakdown of how UD-HD's Arcade Mode appears when run on a traditional 4:3 television.

First, this is the default yoko presentation using Normal Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu:

Second, this is the tate presentation using Normal Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu:

Both of the above are in a 16:9 letterboxed format. I've personally been going with the tate view since I'm using a 20 inch screen, the play-area ends up being about 17 inches, which is acceptable (this is the screen-size I used to use with my DC when I was playing on an old VGA CRT monitor). However, if you're using a smaller SD TV, either of these is going to suck.

Third, this is the yoko presentation using anamorphic Wide Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu (the aspect ratio here is nearly 1:2):

Fourth, this is the tate presentation using anamorphic Wide Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu (the aspect ratio here is nearly 1:1):

Using anamorphic widescreen creates awkward results, but I guess the super thin yoko might be the only way to go for some of you.

All of this could easily be fixed with the inclusion of independent X and Y axis scalers. If those were available (instead of a general overscan adjust which increases both values simultaneously) then using anamorphic widescreen would fix any display issues as the image could then easily be tailored to fit the screen (widen the X-axis for yoko users and increase the Y-axis for tate users).

stryc9 · Post by **stryc9** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:25 am

Kiken wrote:I've noticed that there's a glitch on the Arcade Mode Online Leaderboards: the stage reached doesn't always display correctly

I'ts funny you should say that as I can confirm Radilgy Noa Massive also has this problem. I got to stage 4 boss and the game claims I only got to stage 3 in that run (Classic Mode)

Anyway, UD arrived. Now I have an 80cm 4:3 CRT and I want to play Arcade Mode... if you set the 360 to Widescreen, set UD to 16:10 in the display options, you can put overscan to 115 or 116% and eliminate the black bars with only a small part of either side of the screen not visible. Lets put it this way, I can press the chopper up against the side of the display and it doesn't disappear or anything.

It's not perfect, and having not played the DC original I can't yet tell how much this affects shots fired at you from the extreme perimeter of the display, or whether sideways movement speed is affected much, so yeah.

I have it more or less playable I think but I would expect a patch out of G-Rev none the less, this being a retail release. Actually an update downloaded as I booted it up first time, but no display fix though.

I'm liking the actual Arcade Mode. Impressive enviroments, solid controls and the option is cool.
Pity about the sound FX balance as it takes away from the awesome explosions. It seems to be a simple game at heart (system-wise), but I can see why it's been so popular on Dreamcast. I was surprised how quick the screen filled up with fast moving flak. Gotta get comfortable with the hitbox for now.

Have not yet tried New Order, but I will later to test compatibility with digital arcade sticks and post back the result.

Couldn't be happier having the game itself arrive on 360, don't get me wrong, but the display mode issues are certainly a bit of a sticking point.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:35 am

Speaking of X-Box Live Leaderboard scores in UD-HD's Arcade Mode...

stryc9 · Post by **stryc9** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:44 am

^Nice work dude.

ExitPlanetDust · Post by **ExitPlanetDust** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:16 am

Kiken wrote:Ok, here is a visual breakdown of how UD-HD's Arcade Mode appears when run on a traditional 4:3 television.

First, this is the default yoko presentation using Normal Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... yoko-2.jpg

Second, this is the tate presentation using Normal Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... tate-3.jpg

Both of the above are in a 16:9 letterboxed format. I've personally been going with the tate view since I'm using a 20 inch screen, the play-area ends up being about 17 inches, which is acceptable (this is the screen-size I used to use with my DC when I was playing on an old VGA CRT monitor). However, if you're using a smaller SD TV, either of these is going to suck.

Third, this is the yoko presentation using anamorphic Wide Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu (the aspect ratio here is nearly 1:2):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... yoko-1.jpg

Fourth, this is the tate presentation using anamorphic Wide Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu (the aspect ratio here is nearly 1:1):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... tate-4.jpg

Using anamorphic widescreen creates awkward results, but I guess the super thin yoko might be the only way to go for some of you.

All of this could easily be fixed with the inclusion of independent X and Y axis scalers. If those were available (instead of a general overscan adjust which increases both values simultaneously) then using anamorphic widescreen would fix any display issues as the image could then easily be tailored to fit the screen (widen the X-axis for yoko users and increase the Y-axis for tate users).

Thanks for the pictures.

Wow, that's just laziness. Even $8 PSN Neo Geo Station ports allow you to remedy this issue through independent X and Y scalers.

stryc9 · Post by **stryc9** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:59 am

Sorry if this is a bit noob-ish, but wouldn't messing with independent X/Y scalers (in this case gratuitously) affect sideways movement speed somehow by screwing with the aspect ratio?

With all the Cave ports on 360, as well as stuff like Raiden Fighters etc I have only ever needed to use the universal scaler (X and Y at the same time) to fill the screen, never needed to even touch the independent ones, as far as I recall.

On one hand I guess this is to be expected sometimes.
Its 2012, the ports of these games are on a system that is made for connectivity with a 16:9 HD display, on which they function fine. 4:3 is a dead format, and I'm not surprised complete compatibility is overlooked occasionally, as sad as that is.

On the other hand these companies know whats up having hardcore fans, this is niche shit. They are aware that some of their end user profile are using low def setups, surely.

DrTrouserPlank · Post by **DrTrouserPlank** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:15 am

Was surprised to see someone a couple of days ago who already had 1000/1000 gamerscore on UD HD.

iconoclast · Post by **iconoclast** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:33 am

DrTrouserPlank wrote:Was surprised to see someone a couple of days ago who already had 1000/1000 gamerscore on UD HD.

I think you can credit feed to get all of the achievements.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the game a lot so far. My biggest disappointment is that you can't use the New Order soundtrack in arcade mode. I think I like it more than the original.

Friendly · Post by **Friendly** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:23 am

Kiken wrote:Ok, here is a visual breakdown of how UD-HD's Arcade Mode appears when run on a traditional 4:3 television.

First, this is the default yoko presentation using Normal Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... yoko-2.jpg

Second, this is the tate presentation using Normal Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... tate-3.jpg

Both of the above are in a 16:9 letterboxed format. I've personally been going with the tate view since I'm using a 20 inch screen, the play-area ends up being about 17 inches, which is acceptable (this is the screen-size I used to use with my DC when I was playing on an old VGA CRT monitor). However, if you're using a smaller SD TV, either of these is going to suck.

Third, this is the yoko presentation using anamorphic Wide Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu (the aspect ratio here is nearly 1:2):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... yoko-1.jpg

Fourth, this is the tate presentation using anamorphic Wide Screen from the 360's Display sub-menu (the aspect ratio here is nearly 1:1):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56698677/ud-hd- ... tate-4.jpg

Using anamorphic widescreen creates awkward results, but I guess the super thin yoko might be the only way to go for some of you.

All of this could easily be fixed with the inclusion of independent X and Y axis scalers. If those were available (instead of a general overscan adjust which increases both values simultaneously) then using anamorphic widescreen would fix any display issues as the image could then easily be tailored to fit the screen (widen the X-axis for yoko users and increase the Y-axis for tate users).

Is the same true for the PS3 version? A few posts ago it was said that if you set your PS3's output to 4:3 RGB, arcade mode is fine.

shmups.system11.org

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