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 Post subject: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:14 pm 


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These boards tend to have a very rigid definition of what shmups are, essentially limiting the genre to vertically and horizontally scrolling shooters. While there's nothing wrong with that, I was wondering if you guys have any favorite shooting games that fall within subgenres that are typically not discussed or outright maligned. For example, I see a lot of games posted in the development forums which have random elements, upgrades, customization, etc that simply do not jive with the tastes of most people on these forums. Well, that's fine--but are there any non-traditional shooters that you got really into?

Euroshmups, run n' gun, rail shooters, arena shooters, roguelite shooters, etc.

For myself, I thought 17-Bit's Galak-Z was a ton of fun. There could have been more randomized elements, but the ship control and combat was sublime, and to me it felt aesthetically like the small-scale action version of a lot of old hex-based strategy games, like Masters of Orion 2. The different classes of enemy ships really encouraged you to think on your feet and assess whether you could handle an encounter or if it was best to hide.

ED: If your reaction to anything is "that's not really a shmup!" Well, that's kind of the point of the topic. But I'm hoping people use their best judgement to say "this game I like is pretty shmuppy" even if it doesn't fit the textbook definition. For example, I would say Metal Slug 3 is "shmuppy" even if most people consider it a run n' gun and not a true shmup. Super Mario World, on the other hand, is clearly a platformer.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:03 pm 


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I love quality multi-directional shooters, especially Granada, Kiki Kaikai (Arcade/PCE), the first SFC Kiki Kaikai and Valtric. Due to the orientation, they can combine the strength of vertical shooters (frantic, relentless action) and horizontal ones (smart use of terrain) to great effect, creating not only superb game design, but also incredibly atmospheric set-pieces. You do have to know what you're doing and how to craft the enemy placement/AI, however, something like Super Airwolf is simply despicable.

Some hybrids are also pretty neat. I do enjoy Rendering Ranger even though it isn't as good as the best 16-bit contemporaries in both genres, particularly the run 'n' gun sections are rather dull by virtue of all the flat ground, boss fights usually consist of sitting below them and holding the weapon up. Great sense of destruction and carnage on the other hand, it's a suitably cheesy catastrophe simulator if one is in the right mood.

Health bars, experience, shop systems et al. can work magnificently, it all depends on the execution. Wouldn't even call that "non-traditional", there are more than enough iconic shmups that implement these astoundingly well.

Would probably really enjoy rail shooters were I able to actually see something. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:35 pm 


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This thread is essentially off-topic.

Also, "euroshmups" are shmups, just very bad ones.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:56 pm 


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Plasmo, "Also, "euroshmups" are shmups, just very bad ones."

:lol: :lol: lov it


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:10 pm 


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What was that doujin shmup where you had to input key commands to hack enemies? It was really well-made.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:55 pm 


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Plasmo wrote:
This thread is essentially off-topic.

Also, "euroshmups" are shmups, just very bad ones.

I would cover that under "subgengre that is outright maligned"

I'm sure there a handful of good ones, but if so, I haven't played 'em. Of course, they probably wouldn't get labelled Europshmups if they were any good. Does that make sense? Like "oh this has a health bar and all this other junk but it actually seems to understand what shooters are going for, so, not a Euroshmup."

But that's assuming something can have enough of those elements to be labelled Euroshmup and not be dragged down by the fact that it has those elements. But again, I have not played enough of them to say one way or the other.

I would love for somebody to come in here who has a love/hate relationships with Euroshmups and drop some knowledge on what are the best and worst Euroshmups of all time. But this would require them to actually enjoy some of them to some extent and not play them for masochistic reasons.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:55 pm 


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Pretty sure topdown manual-scrollers ala Kiki Kaikai and Granada are actually considered on-topic now (meaning they're within this subforum's official What Is Shump scope).

SFC Kiki Kaikai aka Pocky & Rocky is a masterpiece. Twinkle Tale (MD) isn't far off! Shock Troopers (Neo Geo MVS) must be played ASAMFP if you're into Metal Slug (just like Slug, JP ver with screaming bloody gore is best).

For something a bit more unconventional, Human's The Firemen (SFC) is secretly a hardcore topdown seek/destroy. Prepare for suicide mission firefighting! Mind the backdrafts, they'll take your face off. Image
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:43 pm 


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I like run-n-guns myself.

Horiz:
Contra
Metal Slug 3
Crime City
Shinobi
Wolf Fang

Vert:
OutZone (the BEST)
Mercs
Commando
Shock Troopers

But yeah, off-topic. Shooters yes, but not shmups.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:55 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:05 pm 


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Star Fox 64 is a very good 3D shmup.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:26 pm 


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Would Kenta Cho's "Gunroar" count?

It's a free aiming naval stg, with the catch that you can scroll the screen faster by moving up to the top. Kind of a nice cross between a auto-scroller and mercs/kika-kakai style top down shooters.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:44 pm 


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I'd have to say The Red Star.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:23 pm 


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Oh yeah, on that note, definitely Furi.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:56 pm 


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Child of Eden. Excellent scoring, great soundtrack, great visuals, great stage design, stages aren't too long or too short. Can't find any flaws.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:58 pm 


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OmegaFlareX wrote:
Mercs

Why is Mercs out and Mamoru-kun in?
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:15 pm 


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MathU wrote:
Star Fox 64 is a very good 3D shmup.

I feel like I'm the only person on earth who prefers the original for SNES

It's so cool! The fake polys are so neat! That game is the futuuuuure!
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:39 pm 



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Cool topic. I love me some Sin And Punishment 2. Could play it all day. Also I bought the physical of Wild Guns Reloaded. Love Wild Guns. Never played it before but it reminded me of Blood Bros in the arcade. Also big fan of Gun Star heroes and of course all the Metal Slug Games.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:41 pm 



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Special World wrote:
MathU wrote:
Star Fox 64 is a very good 3D shmup.

I feel like I'm the only person on earth who prefers the original for SNES

It's so cool! The fake polys are so neat! That game is the futuuuuure!


Yea I still have my original copy and something about the ugly dated look I like.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:14 am 


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Hard Corps Uprising needs more love.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:13 am 


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Leviathan wrote:
Hard Corps Uprising needs more love.

HCU is pretty much a masterpiece. I wish ASW could make a sequel - they made one of the best action/platformers on their first try.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:18 am 


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Uprising has far too many issues to be a masterpiece imo, between it's uneven level/boss design, pacing and balance issues, excessive length, etc.

It is a good game though and while I agree with many of the criticisms aimed at it, at the same time I think it has enough unique strengths to make it a worthwhile title. I would say it deserves more love. Though what it really deserves is a sequel that could have ironed out its flaws.

Wouldn't call it a "non traditional" stg though. It's pretty much a traditional action platformer. An orthodox member of another genre/sub-genre.
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Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:44 am 



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Silpheed on Mega CD is a good Euroshmup. Popcorn have more than one HP and move in formation like lightning, so you really have to line 'em up properly or tank damage. It's got weapon customization too.

Panorama Cotton, Burning Force and Soul Star (CD) come to mind in terms of rail shooters.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:06 pm 


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Double Spoiler is not only the best non-traditional shmup, but it is I think my favorite game, period. Whereas Shoot the Bullet perfectly integrated its novel ideas into an entirely new experience, Double Spoiler made the scoring system more complex to engage with and has the greater skill ceiling and subtly deep gameplay.

These two games have progressed the genre forward in ways no other game could or ever will do. It is a shame that such masterpieces are forever hidden under the guise of the evil "Touhou".
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:48 am 


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Twinkle Star Sprites! Quarth (combination puzzle and shmup) is also good stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:05 am 


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Bought the Famicom version of Quarth, it was a huge letdown compared to the arcade version, but I really loved the latter.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:49 pm 


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Super Spy Hunter/Battle Formula, shump with automobiles.
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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:59 pm 


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Sumez wrote:
Bought the Famicom version of Quarth, it was a huge letdown compared to the arcade version, but I really loved the latter.


I personally like the GB version better than the FC with the level quota and collectable power ups, though I also like the FC version. What did you find wrong with it?


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:03 pm 


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Basically, the patterns that you get are completely different, they are more unique but less reliant on the quick strategic decisions you have to make in the arcade game. Basically the game is far too easy for the first many, many, many levels and doesn't have any methods to remain interesting during that time. Then once it passes the treshold where it finally gets challenging it gets TOO difficult, simply because the game is too fast to realistically keep up with.

I never tried the Game Boy game, it's my impression that it is more of a sequel.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:31 pm 


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Hopefully, the arcade version of Quarth will be release as one of those Arcade Archives games on PS4.


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 Post subject: Re: Best "non-traditional" shmups?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:16 am 


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I don't think even Konami remember that the game exists :D


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